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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Even MSNBC Admits It - Gun Violence is DOWN. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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RobertSmith
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Wonder how painful it was for MSNBC to write the words, "gun violence is down" in the same sentence?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/......nds?lite
acesover
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Gee I wonder where are all the anti gun people? Probably trying to figure out how to spin this. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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No, they're sleeping. It's an easy one; as soon as (well, I won't mention any names, because none of them would claim to be anti-gun) wakes up, you'll see something like: "See, those 20,000+ laws ARE working, so clearly, we should pass more of them."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 02:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:
No, they're sleeping. It's an easy one; as soon as (well, I won't mention any names, because none of them would claim to be anti-gun) wakes up, you'll see something like: "See, those 20,000+ laws ARE working, so clearly, we should pass more of them."


OMG...I never thought of that. I have to delete my post. Smile
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Dannydoyle
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Exactly. Even with procecutions down the violence is down.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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How 'bout trying to understand the data BEFORE we reach conclusions?

The source document is here

The table makes it clear that gun violence in the US was very high in the 93 and declined steadily until about 2003, where it was fairly steady until 2007. It dropped sharply in 2008, and has risen slightly since then.

So what are the relevant questions?

Was gun violence in the early 90s abnormally high? Are current rates higher or lower than those of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Have their been social changes or legislation changes that correspond to the rate changes? Have the methods of collecting the statistics changed? Is it only gun crime that is declining, or is this part of a general social trend?

In general, we have seen declines in all violent crimes in pretty much every Western country in the past few decades. Why?

The fact that there is less violent crime, including gun violence, today than there was in 1993 is an interesting and important story. It would be nice to know more.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
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Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Al Angello
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Do the good people of Chicago, Washington DC, Detroit, and Philadelphia, know that they are safer today?????
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mastermindreader
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No, Al, but the people of New York City do. Violent crime there dropped by 60% in the 1990's and now the city is rated by the FBI as one of the safest large cities in the country. Republican mayor Guiliani attributed that to its enforcement of existing gun laws.
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Al unintentionally as usual brings up a good point. Those specific cities are run by liberal democrats and have some very strict gun control laws.

John why is it when you hear horses you start looking for Zebras? How desperate are people for an agenda any more that this happens? Numbers never are what they are.
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Danny, you forget that in Chicago people simply can go out of city limits to purchase any gun they want. In New York, on the other hand, there are state laws (in the surrounding states as well) that are basically consistent with New York's. How about those laws in Republican Chris Christie's New Jersey?
Dannydoyle
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How long has he been in office. Plus he is hardly a conservative anyhow.
Danny Doyle
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mastermindreader
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Do you think that Rudy Guiliani is a "liberal?" His administration has taken credit for the drastic drop in NYC crime that substantially effected the nationwide numbers.
RobertSmith
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On 2013-05-08 11:31, mastermindreader wrote:
Do you think that Rudy Guiliani is a "liberal?" His administration has taken credit for the drastic drop in NYC crime that substantially effected the nationwide numbers.


On guns and the 2nd Amendment he is.
Dannydoyle
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I am sorry did Rudy grab guns?
Danny Doyle
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RobertSmith
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On 2013-05-08 10:22, Al Angello wrote:
Do the good people of Chicago, Washington DC, Detroit, and Philadelphia, know that they are safer today?????


Excellent point. Maybe if those cities had strict gun control laws they'd be better off?
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 11:51, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 10:22, Al Angello wrote:
Do the good people of Chicago, Washington DC, Detroit, and Philadelphia, know that they are safer today?????


Excellent point. Maybe if those cities had strict gun control laws they'd be better off?


Al is irony impaired.
Danny Doyle
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RobertSmith
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 09:18, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How 'bout trying to understand the data BEFORE we reach conclusions?

The source document is here

The table makes it clear that gun violence in the US was very high in the 93 and declined steadily until about 2003, where it was fairly steady until 2007. It dropped sharply in 2008, and has risen slightly since then.

So what are the relevant questions?

Was gun violence in the early 90s abnormally high? Are current rates higher or lower than those of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Have their been social changes or legislation changes that correspond to the rate changes? Have the methods of collecting the statistics changed? Is it only gun crime that is declining, or is this part of a general social trend?

In general, we have seen declines in all violent crimes in pretty much every Western country in the past few decades. Why?

The fact that there is less violent crime, including gun violence, today than there was in 1993 is an interesting and important story. It would be nice to know more.


When you say 'how about we try to understand the data before reaching conclusions...'

I think you mean figure out how to spin the data.

That said, understanding the data is really superfluous to the point. Anti gun zealots have said for years how bad gun violence has gotten in the United States and the simple fact, regardless of the why, is that it hasn't.

I would wager a guess that more widespread conceal carry laws have something to do with it. Unlike some gun folks though, I would't say that is the sole reason. Just one factor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 10:52, Dannydoyle wrote:

John why is it when you hear horses you start looking for Zebras? How desperate are people for an agenda any more that this happens? Numbers never are what they are.


Unfair and untrue, Danny. Gun crime in the US is way down from 1993--I linked to facts to back that up. What I don't know is whether the early 90s were particularly filled with gun crime, or whether they were typical of the years that preceded it.

The data have two interesting but different meanings: either violence is low today (which would be great) or violence was high 20 years ago (which is interesting).

Do you know which is the case? As always, I welcome facts to the discussion.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Do you think that Rudy Guiliani is a "liberal?" Giuliani was knighted by Her Majesty the Queen, which is against the American Constitution. Does that make him liberal?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 09:18, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How 'bout trying to understand the data BEFORE we reach conclusions?

The source document is here

The table makes it clear that gun violence in the US was very high in the 93 and declined steadily until about 2003, where it was fairly steady until 2007. It dropped sharply in 2008, and has risen slightly since then.

So what are the relevant questions?

Was gun violence in the early 90s abnormally high? Are current rates higher or lower than those of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Have their been social changes or legislation changes that correspond to the rate changes? Have the methods of collecting the statistics changed? Is it only gun crime that is declining, or is this part of a general social trend?

In general, we have seen declines in all violent crimes in pretty much every Western country in the past few decades. Why?

The fact that there is less violent crime, including gun violence, today than there was in 1993 is an interesting and important story. It would be nice to know more.


So you're saying that it IS a fact?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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