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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Even MSNBC Admits It - Gun Violence is DOWN. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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RobertSmith
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 11:51, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am sorry did Rudy grab guns?


Rudy is hardly the friend of the 2nd Amendment that he claims to be. Here's a list from ontheissues:

As mayor, suggested federal gun licensing. (Nov 2008)
Government can impose reasonable regulations on guns. (Nov 2007)
Focus on criminals, not on guns. (Sep 2007)
NYC gun control laws made NYC safest big city in US. (Sep 2007)
2nd Amendment gives people the individual right to bear arms. (May 2007)
Supported nationwide licensing & assault weapons ban. (May 2007)
Things you do in NY about guns may be different than TX. (May 2007)
Gun control reduces urban crime; no effect on hunting. (Feb 2007)
NYC sued two dozen major gun manufacturers and distributors. (Jun 2000)
All gun owners should pass written test. (Mar 2000)
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 12:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 09:18, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How 'bout trying to understand the data BEFORE we reach conclusions?

The source document is here

The table makes it clear that gun violence in the US was very high in the 93 and declined steadily until about 2003, where it was fairly steady until 2007. It dropped sharply in 2008, and has risen slightly since then.

So what are the relevant questions?

Was gun violence in the early 90s abnormally high? Are current rates higher or lower than those of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Have their been social changes or legislation changes that correspond to the rate changes? Have the methods of collecting the statistics changed? Is it only gun crime that is declining, or is this part of a general social trend?

In general, we have seen declines in all violent crimes in pretty much every Western country in the past few decades. Why?

The fact that there is less violent crime, including gun violence, today than there was in 1993 is an interesting and important story. It would be nice to know more.


So you're saying that it IS a fact?


According to the data I linked to, there is less gun violence in the USA in 2012 than in 1993. I've already said that. What I don't know, and no one has provided any assistance, is whether the early 90s were particularly violent, making the current decline comparable to earlier years, or whether we are in a period of decline from a more stable earlier period.

What's hard to understand about what I posted?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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Apparently I'm the only one who cares, but

Image
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
mastermindreader
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The extreme drop in the 90's corresponds with the 60% drop in gun homicides in NYC during the same period. (Also note that the assault weapons ban went into place during that decade.)
EsnRedshirt
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The other thing to ponder- if gun violence is down, why are so many people surprised and had assumed the opposite? The power of the media in action.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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At least part of the explanation is likely to be the aging population (just as the "baby boom" is a partial explanation of the bulge in crime from the early 70s to the early 90s). Violent crime tends to be committed by the 18-30 year old group.

But undoubtedly there are other factors.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Andrew Zuber
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So for the passionate fans here of the 2nd Amendment, what do you propose we do to lessen gun violence? Specifics, not just "regulate the laws" or "focus on mental health." You all are so against gun control, but you never offer up your own suggestions on how to reduce gun violence. At least we're TRYING for cryin' out loud. Or do you think everything is working just fine the way it is? I can't imagine you're fine with what happened in Connecticut, or Colorado, or any of the other mass shootings that we've seen. So let's hear your ideas.

Looks to me like this thread was started merely to push the pro-gun agenda and wait for gun control advocates to chime in so we could argue endlessly about it yet again. How about we make it a productive discussion instead? If gun laws aren't the answer, let's hear some other options.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Kevin Connolly
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Rudy Guiliani had to clean-up Dave Dinkins mess. The City was a cesspool when Rudy Guiliani and fixed it. Other cities followed his lead to turn around their urban problems.
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Yes, Kevin, I agree. I also agree with Guiliani's rational use of gun control measures, which he himself credits for the drop in homicides.

Note also that NYC had a huge homicide rate BEFORE the Dinkins administration as well. But I agree that Dinkins was a poor mayor.
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Andrew Zuber wrote:
So for the passionate fans here of the 2nd Amendment, what do you propose we do to lessen gun violence? Specifics, not just "regulate the laws" or "focus on mental health." You all are so against gun control, but you never offer up your own suggestions on how to reduce gun violence. At least we're TRYING for cryin' out loud. Or do you think everything is working just fine the way it is? I can't imagine you're fine with what happened in Connecticut, or Colorado, or any of the other mass shootings that we've seen. So let's hear your ideas.

Looks to me like this thread was started merely to push the pro-gun agenda and wait for gun control advocates to chime in so we could argue endlessly about it yet again. How about we make it a productive discussion instead? If gun laws aren't the answer, let's hear some other options.


First, I think we have to recognize that as long as there are guns in the country, some people will be killed by guns. That's simply a fact of life. Nobody offered up any suggestions on how to reduce swimming pool deaths, either. Are you guys ok with hundreds of little children dying in pools every year?

I, for one, would be somewhat interested to know how many innocent people are killed by guns each year in our country of over 300 million people. Not "gun deaths," which include the suicides of people who could have done the same thing a number of ways, and which also include justifiable homicide (i.e. self-defense or defense of the life of another person), and which also include deaths caused by the deliberate choices of people (e.g. gang members). I think it would be a useful number to bring into the discussion.

To get around to answering your question, I would propose:

1) Stronger criminal sentences for violent crimes (e.g. life in prison for armed robbery); and
2) Increased border security, including building that fence.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 13:12, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 12:38, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 09:18, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How 'bout trying to understand the data BEFORE we reach conclusions?

The source document is here

The table makes it clear that gun violence in the US was very high in the 93 and declined steadily until about 2003, where it was fairly steady until 2007. It dropped sharply in 2008, and has risen slightly since then.

So what are the relevant questions?

Was gun violence in the early 90s abnormally high? Are current rates higher or lower than those of the 60s, 70s and 80s? Have their been social changes or legislation changes that correspond to the rate changes? Have the methods of collecting the statistics changed? Is it only gun crime that is declining, or is this part of a general social trend?

In general, we have seen declines in all violent crimes in pretty much every Western country in the past few decades. Why?

The fact that there is less violent crime, including gun violence, today than there was in 1993 is an interesting and important story. It would be nice to know more.


So you're saying that it IS a fact?


According to the data I linked to, there is less gun violence in the USA in 2012 than in 1993. I've already said that. What I don't know, and no one has provided any assistance, is whether the early 90s were particularly violent, making the current decline comparable to earlier years, or whether we are in a period of decline from a more stable earlier period.

What's hard to understand about what I posted?


One thing I find hard to understand is the intense level of scrutiny you seem to place on one side of the debate and the vacation your analytical rigorousness seems to go on when the other side of the debate is ripe for further inquiry to get to the truth of the matter.

As a for instance, IMO, it's clearly not feasible to eliminate guns in the United States by federal mandate; we have thousands of miles of a porous border with a country with extensive criminal gang ties to the USA and a vast economic disparity in living conditions, some of the busiest ports in the world, etc. In the USA, we have a pretty clear case of "If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns." Mileage may vary dramatically in Japan, a small island nation. Yet when it was suggested by analogy that strict gun control would be effective in the USA in part because it works so well in Japan, I don't remember you pointing out that blatant elephant in the room. But when there's a post about a marked decline in gun violence over the past 20 years, you immediately want to break down the numbers, go 20+ years before THAT, etc.

While pre-1990s numbers do have relevance to some questions, another thing I don't understand is how they're relevant to a central issue that's been discussed here: The vast decline in gun violence over the past 20 years in the USA, in complete opposition to what is commonly believed and commonly portrayed. One reason that some people may seem less interested than you think is justified in deciphering all the ways are wherefores behind the numbers is that they're irrelevant to the point being made: Led by the media and anti-gun politicians, people in the USA believe that rates of gun violence are either flat or have increased, and they're wrong.

Of course, there are ancillary, related, and "other" points that could be made and that the other numbers have bearing on (such as whether the decline in gun violence is attributable to the increase in gun ownership). But there are important points that are adequately supported in the article the OP links to that require no further inquiry.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Passionate fans of the second amendment? Could you be more condecending?

Pathetic.

Wait till they get to a right that you really like. One like search and seisure. Oh wait they came for that one in the Patriot Act! Don't you see why ALL of your rights are important, and not to cherry pick them?

Gun violence is going down. What more do you need? That to me is proof that no amount of gun control short of taking them all will be enough for you guys.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RobertSmith
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Andrew Zuber wrote:
So for the passionate fans here of the 2nd Amendment, what do you propose we do to lessen gun violence? Specifics, not just "regulate the laws" or "focus on mental health." You all are so against gun control, but you never offer up your own suggestions on how to reduce gun violence. At least we're TRYING for cryin' out loud. Or do you think everything is working just fine the way it is? I can't imagine you're fine with what happened in Connecticut, or Colorado, or any of the other mass shootings that we've seen. So let's hear your ideas.

Looks to me like this thread was started merely to push the pro-gun agenda and wait for gun control advocates to chime in so we could argue endlessly about it yet again. How about we make it a productive discussion instead? If gun laws aren't the answer, let's hear some other options.


You're blatantly lying. Those of us who believe in freedom have in fact offered suggestions. But because those suggestions don't include banning guns or restricting law-abiding from having them, they're chalked up to "never offering suggestions to reduce gun violence."

First of all Andrew...According to those statistics, which MSNBC even points out are strictly numbers, gun violence is DOWN.

I'll go ahead and point out that as a whole, gun laws over the last 20 years have been eased. Concealed carry laws are no prolific across America. Is that the main reason? I don't know. I wouldn't say so. I would only say it's one reason.

Self defense laws have changed also. More states have added or strengthened their castle doctrine laws over the last 20 years.

That dreaded group of b#stards at the NRA have also spent millions pushing more gun education & training over the last 20 years. (Can you believe the audacity of TEACHING people how to handle guns SAFELY?)

Those are three reasons I believe gun violence is dropping. Do I think they're the only reasons? Not at all.

From a sociological stand point we're also seeing a generational change. A generation that was once gripped with crack/cocaine, drug deals and gang involvement is now aging. Are there still gangs and drug violence? Of course. But I think when you look at the overall generation gap we're going from a generation that would take actions, to the current generation that by and large, is too preoccupied getting fat sitting on their couch playing video games than they are going out in public and socializing.

Please note, I'll fully accept that what I've just suggested is purely an untested hypothesis. But I don't believe that the premise that the generation gap is changing America is outside the scope of reality.

So, Andrew, what you may need to accept is that the basis of your statement of using gun control to limit gun violence, may be inherently flawed.

Because according to that DOJ report, it may not be gun control that's reducing gun violence over the last 20 years.
RobertSmith
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On 2013-05-08 13:43, mastermindreader wrote:
The extreme drop in the 90's corresponds with the 60% drop in gun homicides in NYC during the same period. (Also note that the assault weapons ban went into place during that decade.)


Yet if you look at the actual assault weapons ban, it didn't stop the sale of the weapons. They were still available.

So how can banning a gun for 10 years, a gun which was in fact not really banned but still available for the entire 10 years, factor into a decline in gun violence?
Dannydoyle
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Because they say so.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Andrew Zuber wrote:
So for the passionate fans here of the 2nd Amendment, what do you propose we do to lessen gun violence? Specifics, not just "regulate the laws" or "focus on mental health." You all are so against gun control, but you never offer up your own suggestions on how to reduce gun violence. At least we're TRYING for cryin' out loud. Or do you think everything is working just fine the way it is? I can't imagine you're fine with what happened in Connecticut, or Colorado, or any of the other mass shootings that we've seen. So let's hear your ideas.

Looks to me like this thread was started merely to push the pro-gun agenda and wait for gun control advocates to chime in so we could argue endlessly about it yet again. How about we make it a productive discussion instead? If gun laws aren't the answer, let's hear some other options.


Btw, does it also look to you like the child-shoots-child thread was started merely to push the anti-gun agenda, or was that just a totally unrelated thing?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
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"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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While pre-1990s numbers do have relevance to some questions, another thing I don't understand is how they're relevant to a central issue that's been discussed here: The vast decline in gun violence over the past 20 years in the USA, in complete opposition to what is commonly believed and commonly portrayed. One reason that some people may seem less interested than you think is justified in deciphering all the ways are wherefores behind the numbers is that they're irrelevant to the point being made: Led by the media and anti-gun politicians, people in the USA believe that rates of gun violence are either flat or have increased, and they're wrong.


May I add, Lobo, that gun violence is drastically down, despite (or because) concealed carry permits are now available on a "shall issue" basis in the majority of states, and despite (or because) private citizens in America are buying millions of new firearms every year.
Andrew Zuber
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 16:07, Dannydoyle wrote:
Passionate fans of the second amendment? Could you be more condecending?

Pathetic.

Wait till they get to a right that you really like. One like search and seisure. Oh wait they came for that one in the Patriot Act! Don't you see why ALL of your rights are important, and not to cherry pick them?

Gun violence is going down. What more do you need? That to me is proof that no amount of gun control short of taking them all will be enough for you guys.

Not intended to be condescending at all. Merely factual from what I see being written. You're a fan of the second amendment...the right to own a gun. It's something you're passionate about. Or am I mistaken? If I am, why all the fuss?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Andrew Zuber
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 18:23, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:36, Andrew Zuber wrote:
So for the passionate fans here of the 2nd Amendment, what do you propose we do to lessen gun violence? Specifics, not just "regulate the laws" or "focus on mental health." You all are so against gun control, but you never offer up your own suggestions on how to reduce gun violence. At least we're TRYING for cryin' out loud. Or do you think everything is working just fine the way it is? I can't imagine you're fine with what happened in Connecticut, or Colorado, or any of the other mass shootings that we've seen. So let's hear your ideas.

Looks to me like this thread was started merely to push the pro-gun agenda and wait for gun control advocates to chime in so we could argue endlessly about it yet again. How about we make it a productive discussion instead? If gun laws aren't the answer, let's hear some other options.


You're blatantly lying. Those of us who believe in freedom have in fact offered suggestions. But because those suggestions don't include banning guns or restricting law-abiding from having them, they're chalked up to "never offering suggestions to reduce gun violence."

Can you disagree with me without calling me a liar? I'm merely mentioning what I see written on here...one side saying "we should do this" and another side saying "no we shouldn't" and that other side not offering up alternatives. I'm confused as to how that makes me a blatant liar but thanks for the insult.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Andrew Zuber
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Quote:
On 2013-05-08 15:52, LobowolfXXX wrote:
1) Stronger criminal sentences for violent crimes (e.g. life in prison for armed robbery); and
2) Increased border security, including building that fence.

I absolutely agree on both fronts. I'm all for it. And I've been all for the wall for years, for many reasons.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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