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balducci
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On 2013-05-27 06:50, Woland wrote:
Returning to the title of this thread, gun violence is not exactly "down" in Chicago, where it seems, despite (because?) of the strictest "gun control" laws in the Nation, they are certainly "down with it" -

Quote:
May 26, 2013 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- At least 17 people have been shot over the Memorial Day weekend, and six of them died.

The most recent victim was a man shot on the Near North Side just before 3 a.m. Sunday. Chicago police say the 42-year-old victim was shot in the head in the 1000-block of North Branch Street.

Another man died after he was shot in the head in a possible drive-by Saturday night in the 7300-block of South Dorchester.

Among the other victims was Leetema Daniels, 17, who was shot in the head Friday night in the 400-block of North Central Avenue. Another 18-year old man was seriously wounded in the same shooting.

There had been no arrests in that case Sunday.


Your linked to article says nothing about gun violence being up or down.

Actually, if you compare it to the story below, gun violence may well be down over the Memorial Day weekend in Chicago compared to 2012 and 2010 (2011 was an "off" year due to bad weather, so I am not including it here):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29......297.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/21......259.html

The 2013 long weekend is not over yet, though, so lets wait another day and see.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Thanks for bringing up those details, balducci.

I'm sure it is a consolation to the families of the killed that gun violence in Chicago may actually be more or less stable, despite (because?) of the most strict "gun control" laws in the country.
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On 2013-05-27 09:13, Woland wrote:

I'm sure it is a consolation to the families of the killed that gun violence in Chicago may actually be more or less stable, despite (because?) of the most strict "gun control" laws in the country.

No, but the real point is that if there are fewer of those families suffering than there would otherwise be then that is a very good thing.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Quite true, balducci. It is indeed high time for Chicago and Illinois to try some policies that actuall work.
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You guys are funny. Smile
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Happy to oblige.
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Meanwhile, in Britain, an online poll shows that citizens want their guns back!

Quote:
Last Friday the Daily Telegraph, Britain's most widely read broadsheet newspaper, issued an online poll asking members of the public which proposal they would like to see introduced as a Private Members' Bill in the UK's Parliament.

Private Members' Bills are introduced by Members of Parliament or Peers who are not government ministers.

The choices include term limits for Prime Ministers, a flat tax, a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces and the repealing of Britain's hand gun ban. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed, Parliament passed The Firearms Act of 1997, which essentially banned handguns for the atrocity.

But Britons seem unconvinced by the law. The proposer, known as "Colliemum" asked, "...why should only criminals be 'allowed' to possess guns and shoot unarmed, defenceless citizens and police officers?"

While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. The news comes as America contemplates its own new laws on gun ownership, with British talk show host Piers Morgan claiming to back a UK-style ban for the United States.

While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."


And I know that this is not a scientific sample. But it is interesting, nevertheless.
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On 2013-05-29 07:39, Woland wrote:
Meanwhile, in Britain, an online poll shows that citizens want their guns back!

Quote:
Last Friday the Daily Telegraph, Britain's most widely read broadsheet newspaper, issued an online poll asking members of the public which proposal they would like to see introduced as a Private Members' Bill in the UK's Parliament.

Private Members' Bills are introduced by Members of Parliament or Peers who are not government ministers.

The choices include term limits for Prime Ministers, a flat tax, a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces and the repealing of Britain's hand gun ban. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed, Parliament passed The Firearms Act of 1997, which essentially banned handguns for the atrocity.

But Britons seem unconvinced by the law. The proposer, known as "Colliemum" asked, "...why should only criminals be 'allowed' to possess guns and shoot unarmed, defenceless citizens and police officers?"

While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. The news comes as America contemplates its own new laws on gun ownership, with British talk show host Piers Morgan claiming to back a UK-style ban for the United States.

While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."


And I know that this is not a scientific sample. But it is interesting, nevertheless.


It certainly shows what a load of old tosh these things are as people in Britain do not want guns. This so called ban we had in 1997 changed very little as getting a gun isn't / wasn't quite as staightforward as it is in the States. We've always had strict gun laws & that's the way we like it here.
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Quote:
On 2013-05-29 07:39, Woland wrote:
Meanwhile, in Britain, an online poll shows that citizens want their guns back!

Quote:
Last Friday the Daily Telegraph, Britain's most widely read broadsheet newspaper, issued an online poll asking members of the public which proposal they would like to see introduced as a Private Members' Bill in the UK's Parliament.

Private Members' Bills are introduced by Members of Parliament or Peers who are not government ministers.

The choices include term limits for Prime Ministers, a flat tax, a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces and the repealing of Britain's hand gun ban. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed, Parliament passed The Firearms Act of 1997, which essentially banned handguns for the atrocity.

But Britons seem unconvinced by the law. The proposer, known as "Colliemum" asked, "...why should only criminals be 'allowed' to possess guns and shoot unarmed, defenceless citizens and police officers?"

While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. The news comes as America contemplates its own new laws on gun ownership, with British talk show host Piers Morgan claiming to back a UK-style ban for the United States.

While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."


And I know that this is not a scientific sample. But it is interesting, nevertheless.

That article (at least what you are quoting) misrepresents what the poll was about. They were given six options to vote for. It may simply be that the 'guns' option was the least offensive of six bad choices.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics......now.html

Personally, though, I think the results of the poll were thrown off by pro-gun voters in the States, who were being recruited on gun sites to vote for the repeal. Just a few examples of that:

http://www.all4shooters.com/en/news/law/......peal-UK/

http://www.shootersforum.com/general-dis......ack.html

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=5555992
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2013-05-29 09:15, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-29 07:39, Woland wrote:
Meanwhile, in Britain, an online poll shows that citizens want their guns back!

Quote:
Last Friday the Daily Telegraph, Britain's most widely read broadsheet newspaper, issued an online poll asking members of the public which proposal they would like to see introduced as a Private Members' Bill in the UK's Parliament.

Private Members' Bills are introduced by Members of Parliament or Peers who are not government ministers.

The choices include term limits for Prime Ministers, a flat tax, a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces and the repealing of Britain's hand gun ban. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed, Parliament passed The Firearms Act of 1997, which essentially banned handguns for the atrocity.

But Britons seem unconvinced by the law. The proposer, known as "Colliemum" asked, "...why should only criminals be 'allowed' to possess guns and shoot unarmed, defenceless citizens and police officers?"

While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. The news comes as America contemplates its own new laws on gun ownership, with British talk show host Piers Morgan claiming to back a UK-style ban for the United States.

While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."


And I know that this is not a scientific sample. But it is interesting, nevertheless.

That article (at least what you are quoting) misrepresents what the poll was about. They were given six options to vote for. It may simply be that the 'guns' option was the least offensive of six bad choices.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics......now.html

Personally, though, I think the results of the poll were thrown off by pro-gun voters in the States, who were being recruited on gun sites to vote for the repeal. Just a few examples of that:

http://www.all4shooters.com/en/news/law/......peal-UK/

http://www.shootersforum.com/general-dis......ack.html

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=5555992


So how many votes do you feel that this poll received from these pro gun forums? I mean 80% seems like a strong vote in favor of wanting their guns back. Around 11,000 votes cast which means almost 9,000 of the votes cast are in favor of bringing the guns back. Do you feel that most of those votes were from the pro gun forums? I myself am pro gun and would not bother to vote for a gun law for or against in the U.K. it is not of my business as to what they want and truthfully I feel "most" would feel the same way. Do you think perhaps that they just might want them back?

Admittedly I would put more trust in a vote that asked "in favor of", or "not in favor of".

Unfortunately the same thing is being proposed here disguised as more and more gun laws are being passed. It will have the same effect here in America if certain people get their way. That is after the horse has run away lock the barn door.
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balducci
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Less than 13,000 overall votes cast, in a poll for a newspaper that has a print readership of 552,065, and the third most visited British newspaper website with 1.7 million daily browsers.

The poll did not allow you to vote "against" measures ... only "for" them.

So less than 13,000 votes "for" any of the measures cast on a site with 1.7 million daily browsers.

What does that tell you?

Maybe, just maybe, that none of the proposed measures are very popular?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Hi Russell,

Quote:
We've always had strict gun laws & that's the way we like it here.


If you'll forgive me for contradicting you in a public forum, that statement is simply in error. England has not "always had strict gun laws," and if you have ever read Conan Doyle, you will perhaps remember, for example, that Doctor Watson, like many middle-class or upper middle-class Englishmen, owned a revolver which Mr. Holmes often asked him to bring along. The restriction of firearms ownership and carriage in England began after The Great War, and was initially intended to disarm the working class.

If you are interested in learning the actual history of firearms legislation in England, may I respectfully suggest that you have a look at Professor Malcolm's study, Guns and Violence: the English Experience, published by the Harvard University Press, and available in the U.K. from Amazon. A recent article of hers published in the Wall Street Journal is here.
balducci
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On 2013-05-29 10:22, Woland wrote:
Hi Russell,

Quote:
We've always had strict gun laws & that's the way we like it here.


If you'll forgive me for contradicting you in a public forum, that statement is simply in error. England has not "always had strict gun laws," and if you have ever read Conan Doyle, you will perhaps remember, for example, that Doctor Watson, like many middle-class or upper middle-class Englishmen, owned a revolver which Mr. Holmes often asked him to bring along.

Perhaps he meant more along the lines of in modern times / in his lifetime? Which is how I read it.

I believe Doctor Watson's firearm was an old officers' handgun from his time in the Army in India. So I am not at all sure whether his having a handgun was at all representative of whether "many middle-class or upper middle-class Englishmen" did. Really, it makes it sound more like Watson was rather unusual (quite atypical) for having a handgun. Interesting question, though, and I am a little curious as to what the actual facts are.

Woland, don't forget about the "French Tax Soars to Over 100%" thread. I'm waiting for a response from you there. Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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On 2013-05-29 10:22, Woland wrote:

If you are interested in learning the actual history of firearms legislation in England, may I respectfully suggest that you have a look at Professor Malcolm's study, Guns and Violence: the English Experience, published by the Harvard University Press, and available in the U.K. from Amazon. A recent article of hers published in the Wall Street Journal is here.

It appears that her book was first published in one form circa 2002, then again in 2004? In any case, it appears that her research and conclusions are somewhat out of date:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl......al-ones/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Woland
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Hi balducci,

Watson is just a convenient, generally known example. Even vicars carried revolvers in Victorian and Edwardian times.

Malcolm's work on the history of firearms control in England is not at all out of date.
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On 2013-05-29 10:05, balducci wrote:
Less than 13,000 overall votes cast, in a poll for a newspaper that has a print readership of 552,065, and the third most visited British newspaper website with 1.7 million daily browsers.

The poll did not allow you to vote "against" measures ... only "for" them.

So less than 13,000 votes "for" any of the measures cast on a site with 1.7 million daily browsers.

What does that tell you?

Maybe, just maybe, that none of the proposed measures are very popular?


Seems to tell me that so far it is approaching 14,000 voters have an interest in these issues and so far a vast majority are in favor of having their guns back. Oh also it is not over yet. So no telling how many votes will be cast.

Also if I am not mistaken not even 60% of the people here in The U.S. voted in the last presidential election. What does that tell you? Maybe people are just not interested in things but like to complain if the results don't suit them.
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Russell Davidson
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Quote:
On 2013-05-29 11:50, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-29 10:22, Woland wrote:
Hi Russell,

Quote:
We've always had strict gun laws & that's the way we like it here.


If you'll forgive me for contradicting you in a public forum, that statement is simply in error. England has not "always had strict gun laws," and if you have ever read Conan Doyle, you will perhaps remember, for example, that Doctor Watson, like many middle-class or upper middle-class Englishmen, owned a revolver which Mr. Holmes often asked him to bring along.

Perhaps he meant more along the lines of in modern times / in his lifetime? Which is how I read it.



Yes, I meant in my lifetime, thank you balducci. There's no need for us to have hand guns in our homes.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2013-05-29 08:54, Russell Davidson wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-29 07:39, Woland wrote:
Meanwhile, in Britain, an online poll shows that citizens want their guns back!

Quote:
Last Friday the Daily Telegraph, Britain's most widely read broadsheet newspaper, issued an online poll asking members of the public which proposal they would like to see introduced as a Private Members' Bill in the UK's Parliament.

Private Members' Bills are introduced by Members of Parliament or Peers who are not government ministers.

The choices include term limits for Prime Ministers, a flat tax, a law to encourage the 'greening' of public spaces and the repealing of Britain's hand gun ban. Following the Dunblane massacre in 1996, in which 16 schoolchildren were killed, Parliament passed The Firearms Act of 1997, which essentially banned handguns for the atrocity.

But Britons seem unconvinced by the law. The proposer, known as "Colliemum" asked, "...why should only criminals be 'allowed' to possess guns and shoot unarmed, defenceless citizens and police officers?"

While the poll continues, so far over 80 percent of the 11,000+ respondents have told the Telegraph that they want to see the handgun ban repealed. The news comes as America contemplates its own new laws on gun ownership, with British talk show host Piers Morgan claiming to back a UK-style ban for the United States.

While gun crime soared after the British ban in 1997, rates of gun violence have fallen, especially in British cities, following more spending by police forces into tackling gun crime. Police in England and Wales recorded 5,911 firearms offences in 2011/12, a reduction of 42 percent compared with nine years earlier, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But statistics from the United States show that guns are used by citizens to defend themselves around eighty times more often than they are used to take a life. A recent study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy concluded that there is a negative correlation between gun ownership and violent crime in countries internationally, that is, “where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest."


And I know that this is not a scientific sample. But it is interesting, nevertheless.


It certainly shows what a load of old tosh these things are as people in Britain do not want guns. This so called ban we had in 1997 changed very little as getting a gun isn't / wasn't quite as staightforward as it is in the States. We've always had strict gun laws & that's the way we like it here.


Just let me correct you so your statement can be true and not supposition.

That is the way you like it. At least we know that statement is a truism. Would not want to call you a fibber.

Also let me correct you again. There is no need for you to have a handgun in your home. Agreed, as it could be dangerous as your obvious distain for them would reflect your lack of knowledge in handling one and that could be dangerous.

So now I agree. Someone such as yourself does not need one nor should they have one.

Problem solved.
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Dannydoyle
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It works out great. I am even all for nobody in England wanting one or needing one. Bully for you. Good to hear violent crime is not rampant.

Now since I extend that courtesy and don't mind one bit and never try to make you adopt an American way of thinking or our constitution I will ask the same in retur ln from you and our Canadian neighbours. Just keep quiet about it.
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balducci
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Quote:
On 2013-05-30 17:50, Dannydoyle wrote:

Now since I extend that courtesy and don't mind one bit and never try to make you adopt an American way of thinking or our constitution I will ask the same in retur ln from you and our Canadian neighbours. Just keep quiet about it.

I would happily keep quiet about it, if you would only help keep 'your' guns and NRA out of 'my' country (e.g. see link).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010......try.html
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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