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kevinuncanny Loyal user 264 Posts |
Dannydoyle...sorry I don't know how to quote on here, but your statement:
If you have ant to learn therapt become a therapist. It takes quite some time to become a good qualified safe therapist. Then perhaps hynosis is a tool.but you will be faith by ualified teachers how and when to use it. The problem I see with most hypnotherapy is the "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks lime a nail" syndrome. is a great way to say it!
Kevin Lepine
Hypnosis Unleashed-THE Vegas Hypnosis Show www.Kevinlepine.com www.VegasHypnosisShow.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I'm suspicious if a hypnosis show can be taught in a weekend course. I am outraged at the idea that therapy can.
Anyone doing that should be charged with practicing medicine without a license.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
The least effective form of therapy is suggestion therapy. Its practically useless for most problems. As is basic hypnosis. Regression therapy is also not the best way forward either. The truth is most problems are much better solved with a combination of techniques layered into a specific process to pull apart the structure of the problem. Hypnosis as normally described ie hypnotist puts client into some kind of miraculous trance isn't needed. Although its great for "integration" to tie up a few loose ends its not the most effective way to resolve a problem.
Learning hypnosis in a weekend is a joke. Learning a high level takes years of practice further "stuff" long after the "certified" courses. The mechanics of a show can be taught in a weekend but it takes a while and a few dodgy shows before you can get the skills to deliver a reasonable show. Doing a good show takes longer. Just like anything else in life. I personally wouldn't work with anyone trying to take their life or with serious drug addiction. I know my limitations. In fact I tend to only work with those I know I can help or at least pretty sure. Personally I don't think psychologists have a clue either but at least they get a salary for the grief. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bguQkX1M1......embedded |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-13 12:20, Dannydoyle wrote: Absolutely correct. Further, if you ask for some information in the wrong way, if they don't have it, they'll invent it. This is called "confabulation." There is specialist training for getting people to remember accurately ("forensic hypnosis"), and for therapy, obtaining "memories," even if not objectively true, can help in understanding the person's issues. The hypnotist has to understand this, otherwise they can mistake valuable insight into the mind for objective reality. Those who have done this have ruined lives, destroyed families, and cost taxpayers hundreds of millions. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-13 12:49, kevinuncanny wrote: Such as? I have no idea what you're talking about. Hypnotherapy is about suggestion. Quote:
I used the term 'blocked out'. Ok, someone is requesting regression thearpy do to childhood trauma. Not something I think should be done unless you have the training to deal with the emotions and phsychological reactions that come with it. If you go to a doctor with a broken arm and suggest brain surgery, does the doctor agree? Of course not. Similarly, a hypnotherapist doesn't automatically do what someone requests. Rather, as a result of training and experience the hypnotist determines the best course of action and discusses it with the person. In many cases, "regression to cause" is unneeded to deal with childhood issues. Quote:
"Serious drug addicition" You want to pick apart words as to what is serious and what is light? Fine, light: a kids mother catches him smoking pot and sends him to therapry to stop. Serious, a guy just killed a fellow junkie friend of his because instead of wanting to share the real heorin he gave his buddy most drano (real case). Do you think suggestion is all that is needed for him or is deeper therapy a good idea? No, I don't want to pick apart what is serious and what is light. I would prefer to use correct terminology. Without the correct terminology we could be speaking at each other and thinking we were communicating when we were not. If you send a kid to hypnotherapy to get him to stop smoking pot, it would be unsuccessful. Hypnotherapy works when a client wants to change. Hypnotherapy is the tool for change. If the person does not want to change--and there is no evidence in your example that the kid wants to do so--a principled hypnotherapist would refuse the case. If someone just killed someone else, they should be going to jail, not a hypnotist. "Severe depression" may be used by some therapists, but it is imprecise and certainly not a diagnosis accepted (at least in the U.S.). If someone is making attempts on their own life they need immediate intervention, not a trip to a hypnotherapist. If someone came to me with this problem the first thing I would do is send them to a psychiatrist (not psychologist or therapist) for blood work and possible drug intervention. I would then work with the psychiatrist, sharing notes, to help this person as needed. Quote:
So, DM, I ask you should you have further training in psychology to deal with those issues? When it comes to hypnotherapy, I ALWAYS advise people to get as much training as possible and dedicate themselves to lifelong learning. This includes professional studies, but not necessarily obtaining psychological licensure. I would respectfully suggest (no pun intended) that you may not be as familiar with the current state of hypnotherapy as you think. However, this should really go either PM or to a forum other than the Café. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-13 13:28, Dannydoyle wrote: I agree. I strongly disagree with those who advertise such trainings as being all someone needs to practice hypnotherapy or stage hypnosis. It's like saying learning how to start a car engine makes you ready to be a professional race car driver. But you do have to learn to start the engine. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-13 13:49, mindpunisher wrote: And your proof of that is? Quote:
As is basic hypnosis. What is that? Quote:
Regression therapy is also not the best way forward either. It depends upon the individual. In many cases it is not warranted. Quote:
The truth is most problems are much better solved with a combination of techniques layered into a specific process to pull apart the structure of the problem. This is not "truth" at all. It is your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but not even modern forms of psychotherapy such as CBT rely on that model. Quote:
Hypnosis as normally described ie hypnotist puts client into some kind of miraculous trance isn't needed. The FIRST thing modern hypnotherapists do is clarify that they do not have special powers and that hypnotic trance is not "miraculous," Unfortunately, your understanding of modern hypnotherapy appears to be somewhat dated. Quote:
Although its great for "integration" to tie up a few loose ends its not the most effective way to resolve a problem. Yes, hypnotherapy can, in some instances, help with what you're describing as integration. In some instances it is the most effective way to resolve an issue while in other instances it is not. Quote:
Learning hypnosis in a weekend is a joke. Learning a high level takes years of practice further "stuff" long after the "certified" courses. Learning to hypnotize in a weekend is easy. In fact, it can be taught in a few minutes. However, learning a high level of ANYTHING takes not just years of practice but also further education. Quote:
The mechanics of a show can be taught in a weekend but it takes a while and a few dodgy shows before you can get the skills to deliver a reasonable show. Doing a good show takes longer. Just like anything else in life. I would agree. Quote:
I personally wouldn't work with anyone trying to take their life or with serious drug addiction. I know my limitations. In fact I tend to only work with those I know I can help or at least pretty sure. Personally I don't think psychologists have a clue either but at least they get a salary for the grief. Again, I agree. Knowing one's limitations, basically being self-aware, is very important, as is knowing the legal scope of practice. Often, n00bs who are enthused by what they can easily accomplish don't realize that stage hypnosis and/or hypnotherapy can be far more complex than they imagine. |
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Pomdini New user Some magical day I'll have more than 64 Posts |
We are lucky to have so many people being so generous with their knowledge in this forum.
To answer an earlier question (sorry this is hypnotherapy related). In the UK hypnotherapists are self regulated, this means that if you are qualified with a recognised school and registered with at least two credible associations you can become a member off the government run CNHC (Complimentary and Natural Healthcare Council), this makes you as credible as is possible. To remain a member you must be insured and will have to undergo supervision for 5 years and you must attend CPD courses each year ad-infinitum. Some (most) associations in the UK do not look kindly on performance hypnotists and have disrepute clauses in their mandates. Ultimately anybody can practice as a hypnotherapist in the UK, if you want to be professional and legitimate then the HPD course, in a good school, is the best start.
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
DMK
Basic hypnosis is closed eyes relaxation then followed by suggestions and visualizations. From doing hypnosis for 25 years I know from experience that this is the least effective form of hypnotherapy. I know this because this is how I started out all those years ago that it is pretty limited. I also know this from many clients I have seen over the years who have visited other hypnotists and not been able to resolve their problem. The reason is usually because they received something similar to the above. I am seeing a client this week for depression and severe anxiety. She has had counseling and CBT and is on medication. Which is probably why shes so anxious. I will see her for one five hour session and guarantee that her problem will be resolved and she will be off medication within 6-8 weeks under the supervision of her doctor. Or I will give her her money back. I don't know any other therapists who offer this guarantee. I have worked with dozens of clients over the years. And I only work with clients I know will respond to this. ( or at least am pretty certain) which is usually the majority. The rest I refer to someone else. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Scary.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Sounds like you might have some anxiety Danny do you need help? Going down the mainstream route is a lot scarier.
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Mindpunisher, I have no doubt that you learned "closed eyes relaxation … followed by suggestions and visualizations" and called it "basic hypnosis" 25 years ago. However, It has evolved a great deal since then. The methods of Elman and Erickson have become adopted as basic hypnosis techniques, and the methodology of suggestion and visualization is vastly improved. I would agree that in some instances what you're calling "basic hypnosis" is limited and not very effective. In other instances, clients, especially new ones, expect it and won't initially respond well without the hypnotist meeting their expectations. It all depends upon the individual you're working with.
Although there are some therapists who provide guarantees, indeed, most do not. Although a single, five-hour session is not considered optimal or practical by most hypnotherapists. Some NLP practitioners will do that with full life coaching. However dealing with depression and anxiety with hypnotherapy is usually fairly quick and effective. I agree that part of the art of hypnotherapy is recognizing who is ready to respond to it and referring out those who will either not respond to it (usually due to not being ready) and/or will not respond to the hypnotist. Being able to do this, IMO, is an indication of a superior practitioner. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
DM
I still use that kind of hypnosis but at the end of the change work when the actual work has been done. I use a lot of Ericksonian type of suggestions at that point. And process suggestions etc. I wouldn't class that as basic it takes years to learn and hone that skill. Plus you need to be on our toes to feed back some things that come up during the previous 4 hours. But the real meat of the work has already been done by then. After about an hour and a half "conversation" quite often a client won't even be able to tell you why they came because they either can't remember or are finding it almost impossible to hold on to their problem. Its actually a really fun way to work with someone who is or "was" depressed.Basic is what I said and find that there are more therapists out there that do the basic stuff than not. Or perhaps they are just bad at doing the other stuff I don't know. Counseling will have you in therapy for years and still not resolve the problem. CBT from the experience of the clients I have worked with doesn't seem to be much better. Like coaching is something totally different it isn't therapy. They don't need further coaching after the session the problem has gone. And we also make a list of all the things they want to let go in their lives that they believe have been holding them back and let go as many of these things at the same time. There are also some people who are not only not ready but also not willing. There are people out there who do not want to let go of the problem because they get something positive from having a feeling of being special or an excuse not to do something. Or even sometimes to punish or control a partner or someone else. It can get complicated and counselors can deal with them. |
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-19 19:56, mindpunisher wrote: How often can they not remember why they came? 1 in 2, 1 in 1000?
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
Anthony, I do not follow MP's protocol of working with a client using hypnotherapy for 5 hour sessions. However I can see how working with a person for that long can so change the focus that a client, during the session and while in trance, doesn't remember why they're there. Even with a shorter period of work this type of confusion can often occur during a trance state where lots of work is going on. It's generally a positive sign as the focus changes from "the problem," and that problem no longer becomes important. After the client emerges from trance of course they'll remember why they came to have the session.
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kenedho Regular user 192 Posts |
First off I apologise my topic post has attracted an unexpected kind of discussion on hypnotherapy, instead of entertainment hypnosis. I have, however, learnt so much from reading everyone's posts. Thank you all, for showing me all the little things to be aware of when working as a hypnotherapist and the paths that can lead me to it.
Kened |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-19 19:32, mindpunisher wrote: I meant scary how easy it is.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-05-12 15:34, kenedho wrote: Take a good reputable certified hypnosis course. That would be the best option imho.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
Not necessarily Pakar. I know many, many successful stage hypnotists including many on this thread that have never taken one of those "certified" hypnosis courses. In fact most, if not all of the legendary stage hypnotists on the other thread managed very well to get by without taking one of these courses.
And to answer Kenedho's question: Yes indeed. So called "close up hypnosis" requires an entirely different mode of study than stage hypnosis. And Hynotherapy requires a different mode of study than both of them. So there are THREE different types of hypnosis. I always thought there was only two but the Magic Café hypnosis section has made me aware that there are three. And of course everything on the magic Café hypnosis section should obviously be taken as gospel. Apparently something known as "street hypnosis" has emerged. I confess that I have never seen a "street hypnotist" and I do believe this is one mode of suffering that I am very grateful not to have endured. I thank Jesus most fervently for this incredible blessing. And for Australians to thank Jesus is as rare as seeing someone talking sense in this revered place of Green worship that has been provided for us. |
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White Rodent New user Australia 84 Posts |
I do apologise. I meant to say "on this section" instead of "on this thread" in the first line of the above post.
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