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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Psi evidence (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Smoking Camel
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Some recent studies plus the well known ones can be found here:

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

Enjoy!



.......Exasperated, I asked, “What will it take, short of having a near-death experience yourself, to convince you that it’s real?” Very nonchalantly, without batting an eye, the response was: “Even if I were to have a near-death experience myself, I would conclude that I was hallucinating, rather than believe that my mind can exist independently of my brain.”
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
Tom Jorgenson
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That person will hold that opinion until they have their own NDE.

No one who has ever actually had an Out of the Body Experience will say they think it was an hallucination.

It seems that PSI experience falls into two separate categories: Experiential or Observational. Neither is proof, but experiential is often proof enough.

Tnanks for listing that valuable resource...well worth bookmarking.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
Mind Guerrilla
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 13:28, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
No one who has ever actually had an Out of the Body Experience will say they think it was an hallucination.

Couldn't that be partly because some people believe hallucinations only happen to crazy people?
Sean Giles
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I had Out of body experiences (OBEs) for years when I was younger. Starting from aged 8 they were sporadic, then in my mid to late teens they became more and more frequent until I was having cycles where at some points I would have them every night, always involuntarily.

Finally I found out what they were and realised that I was not the only one in the world having them (I'd asked all my friends). I found out that there were different methods to bring the OBE on and soon learned to bring them on at will.

It got more difficult, the older I got and I rarely do it these days and if I am tempted, I find it harder to stay out for any length of time. Other OBE sufferers/partakers out there will know what I mean when I say that one lapse from the deep place that your brain goes to and you snap back to your body instantly.

What I mean to say is, it's the most amazingly real experience, beleive me I know, but I think it's a result of what our incredible brains are capable of. It's literally a dream world that you are awake in and if experienced, can control. I couldn't call it an hallucination because the whole experience is as real as real life. The same effect can be brought on by a sensory deprivation chamber for those that find it difficult to do.


It's always interesting for me to read the differing view on OBEs so good post Smile

Best
Sean
Pakar Ilusi
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I hope I will enter a realm of love.

I don't know.

So I hope.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Mind Guerrilla
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How does one distinguish between an actual experience and an incredibly vivid hallucination?
dmkraig
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MG: everything comes through our senses and is interpreted by our minds. How, then, do you define the difference between an "actual experience" and an "incredibly vivid hallucination?"

I think there is ample evidence to show that two people could observe the same thing and interpret it differently. Our minds delete, distort, and generalize the raw data that is input to them through their senses.

I believe it's going to come down to what Dunninger (maybe someone said it earlier) used to say: For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't believe, no explanation is possible.
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:14, dmkraig wrote:
MG: everything comes through our senses and is interpreted by our minds. How, then, do you define the difference between an "actual experience" and an "incredibly vivid hallucination?"



Maybe they are one and the same. Reality is not actually made up of matter, it's actually made up of thought form that people just project onto.
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Mind Guerrilla
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Maybe I could have been clearer by saying "actual event" instead of "experience."

How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?

As for the Dunninger quote, if no explanation is possible then wouldn't the search for "psi evidence" be an exercise in futility?
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:


How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?



Assuming there's a difference....
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Sean Giles
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
Maybe I could have been clearer by saying "actual event" instead of "experience."

How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?

As for the Dunninger quote, if no explanation is possible then wouldn't the search for "psi evidence" be an exercise in futility?


You always know you are having an OBE when in the middle of one. You are completely self aware (unlike in dreams) and you know that you are separate from your body and where your body is.

And like vegas, 'what happens on the astral plane, stays on the astral plane' and whatever you do, it affects nothing in the real world. I've seen believers account for this by saying the astral world is a copy of our world but not the same place. Personally I think it's an amazing product of brain function. That's why it possible for veteran out of body experiencers to change aspects of the environment just by thinking about it.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:


As for the Dunninger quote, if no explanation is possible then wouldn't the search for "psi evidence" be an exercise in futility?


Not at all. You left out half of the quote (which, by the way, predates Dunninger and was used earlier in the novel and film, "The Song of Bernadette").

It's only an exercise in futility for those who have already made up their minds NOT to believe regardless of the proof presented.
Pakar Ilusi
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"It's only an exercise in futility for those who have already made up their minds NOT to believe regardless of the proof presented.

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't believe, no explanation is possible."
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Garrette
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 13:28, Tom Jorgenson wrote:
That person will hold that opinion until they have their own NDE.

No one who has ever actually had an Out of the Body Experience will say they think it was an hallucination.

It seems that PSI experience falls into two separate categories: Experiential or Observational. Neither is proof, but experiential is often proof enough.

Tnanks for listing that valuable resource...well worth bookmarking.
Except that your claim is demonstrably untrue. Like Sean Giles, I have had more than one OBE. I have also had many experiences that would convince at least some people that the paranormal is real. And yet I do not find those experiences convincing.
Randwill
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:

How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?



Through rigorous testing. Something the gullible find objectionable for some reason. They have a million reasons why testing extraordinary claims is useless, impossible and just plain wrong, some of which will now appear below.
Smoking Camel
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 17:42, Randwill wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:

How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?



Through rigorous testing. Something the gullible find objectionable for some reason. They have a million reasons why testing extraordinary claims is useless, impossible and just plain wrong, some of which will now appear below.


Eh? I don't think so. The list of "rigorous tests" for the "extraordinary claims" appears above. Mr Radin has thoughtfully compiled the list for those people that don't think that these things hold up under scrutiny and would therefore never bother to conduct their own tests.
I no longer smoke camel cigarettes.
Mind Guerrilla
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 16:47, Sean Giles wrote:
You always know you are having an OBE when in the middle of one. You are completely self aware

I was completely self aware when I experienced sleep paralysis. However, until I found out that such a thing as sleep paralysis exists, whenever it occurred I thought maybe I was being possessed by a demon (I should mention I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Smile ).
Garrette
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 17:53, Smoking Camel wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 17:42, Randwill wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 15:33, Mind Guerrilla wrote:

How does one distinguish between something that has actually occurred in objective reality from an incredibly vivid hallucination?



Through rigorous testing. Something the gullible find objectionable for some reason. They have a million reasons why testing extraordinary claims is useless, impossible and just plain wrong, some of which will now appear below.


Eh? I don't think so. The list of "rigorous tests" for the "extraordinary claims" appears above. Mr Radin has thoughtfully compiled the list for those people that don't think that these things hold up under scrutiny and would therefore never bother to conduct their own tests.
Not really. Radin is, in my opinion, one of the few big name parapsychologists who attempts to be honest but who fails in the application. The fact that the linked list includes both the Targ & Puthoff paper along with Ben's work reveals that his usual lax standards are in play here. The key to controlled testing that should change someone's mind is not that someone wrote a paper (many of Radin's references are meta-analyses and not studies) but that purportedly successful experiments are replicated and that the replications, along with the original, are properly documented and stand up to scrutiny. Peer review is, of course, the best way to ensure this.

What Radin has done is simply search the literature of questionable, unreplicated studies, and picked a bunch he likes. My quick review indicated that the only ones with some modicum of potential support for the paranormal are the Wiseman Schlitz (sp?) papers on the Sheep Goat effect.
Garrette
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 18:07, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 16:47, Sean Giles wrote:
You always know you are having an OBE when in the middle of one. You are completely self aware

I was completely self aware when I experienced sleep paralysis. However, until I found out that such a thing as sleep paralysis exists, whenever it occurred I thought maybe I was being possessed by a demon (I should mention I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Smile ).
Very similar to some of my experiences.
Mind Guerrilla
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Quote:
On 2013-05-27 18:14, Garrette wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 18:07, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-27 16:47, Sean Giles wrote:
You always know you are having an OBE when in the middle of one. You are completely self aware

I was completely self aware when I experienced sleep paralysis. However, until I found out that such a thing as sleep paralysis exists, whenever it occurred I thought maybe I was being possessed by a demon (I should mention I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Smile ).
Very similar to some of my experiences.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
(Whether we like it or not) Smile
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