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Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-27 18:23, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
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On 2013-05-27 18:14, Garrette wrote:
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On 2013-05-27 18:07, Mind Guerrilla wrote:
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On 2013-05-27 16:47, Sean Giles wrote:
You always know you are having an OBE when in the middle of one. You are completely self aware

I was completely self aware when I experienced sleep paralysis. However, until I found out that such a thing as sleep paralysis exists, whenever it occurred I thought maybe I was being possessed by a demon (I should mention I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Smile ).
Very similar to some of my experiences.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
(Whether we like it or not) Smile


Sleep paralysis can be very scary if you don't know what it is, and even then it's still very freaky. If you are experiencing sleep paralysis you are one step away from an OBE.

Did you experience vibrations and loud noise during sleep paralysis?
DWRackley
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Never successful with an OBE (and I have tried!) I frequently enjoy lucid dreaming and use “Reverie” as a regular part of idea creation. Maybe Sean can give me some pointers. Smile

While not an existentialist at heart (some beliefs can be chosen or by consent) I do recognize that the mind relies on its own interpretation of whatever stimulus it receives to determine what’s real as opposed to what’s fantasy. Even joint or common experience does not necessarily verify “reality”.

I have experienced a shared “vision”, where there was no doubt that it was subjective only, but there was also no doubt that we saw the same things. As we began to compare notes, my “investigator” mindset kicked in and we began writing down what we remembered rather than speaking it aloud (thereby mitigating suggestion). Twenty one matches out of 23 items listed are fairly a strong indicator.

“Rigorous testing” notwithstanding, this particular event has only happened once, it was 16 years ago, and I have no idea how to replicate it. Is Randy going to sleep with me until such time as it recurs? The “rigorous testing” crowd is just as blind to reality as anyone else. Look at the laboratory definition of “unscientific”; it means, in simplest terms, nobody can think of a way to falsify it.
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Pakar Ilusi
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Sleep paralysis.

The go to for religious folks here in my country when proving demons exist.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 02:00, DWRackley wrote:
Never successful with an OBE (and I have tried!) I frequently enjoy lucid dreaming and use “Reverie” as a regular part of idea creation. Maybe Sean can give me some pointers. Smile



If you've experienced lucid dreaming in it's literal sense (i.e. you've woken in the dream world and realised your body is asleep and you are in a dream) then you've pretty much experienced and OBE.

I've never got into an OBE through lucid dreaming myself but I understand that it's indistinguishable from OBE/Astral projection/NDE. They are all the same phenomena, it's just the catalyst that is different.

There are many different techniques to bring on an OBE and they all make use of deep relaxation. You basically have to get yourself to that point between waking and sleep, where you are about to fall over into sleep. It's a deeply relaxed state where you are no longer aware of your body through the normal senses (don't move a muscle at this point or you will become attached to that part of your body again and the spell will be broken)

At that very moment, instead of falling into sleep, you can suddenly 'see' the room you are in (even though your eyes are still closed) and it's a small step to push yourself up and out of your body. From there you can go anywhere you want. With practice you can visit anywhere in the world.

It's an incredible experience and well worth the effort. And it gets easier, the more you do it too.
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 03:28, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Sleep paralysis.

The go to for religious folks here in my country when proving demons exist.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


Along with sleep paralysis can come the feeling that you are not alone in the room and there is an evil presence with you. I've never had that but many report it. I can see how someone with a religous predisposition could attribute it to demons.

Google 'old hag syndrome' it's creepy. And sleep paralysis can be frightening, especially if you experience the vibrations and loud noise as I used to.
funsway
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So, how can a cat know when someone is about to die and humans don't? How can my Service Dog, Limora, know when someone is ill -- lie with them for an hour, go outside an throw up and the person get better.

Methinks maybe the Randi types are looking in the wrong place for answers -- like looking in the tool shed for a can of beans.

I hope to have many OBE only because this body is failing me -- so, if I want to complete all of my desired tasks I had better find a different way. When I hire help and they do the task "as if I were there" is this not also an OBE?

Actually, if an employee's mind were actually on his work today I would considered it a return of their mind to their body. Ask a teenager why they need a device in their ear in order to do homework. You will discover they have to be "out of body" in order to function -- the "here and now" not being a place of their acquaintance.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 04:11, funsway wrote:
When I hire help and they do the task "as if I were there" is this not also an OBE?

Actually, if an employee's mind were actually on his work today I would considered it a return of their mind to their body. Ask a teenager why they need a device in their ear in order to do homework. You will discover they have to be "out of body" in order to function -- the "here and now" not being a place of their acquaintance.


Hi Funsway,

The OBE that I'm discussing here is a specific kind of experience and has nothing to do with the two examples mentioned above. Your real body doesn't really do anything except stay in a deeply relaxed state and is not capable of doing homework or anything while you are 'out'.

As for hiring help and they do the task "as if I were there", I don't see any parallels with an OBE. Where does the experience of leaving your physical body come into it?

best,
Sean
funsway
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Thought you would know I was joking ;-)

except ...

our perceptions of what occurs in any state of physical being must be related to experiences in other states. I would think that any condition in which the seemingly automatic functions of the physical body are disconnected with conscious thought is relevant. For example, there is evidence that some people think on multiple levels simultaneously -- and can sit down and write a symphony or poem or computer program without any conscious process of analysis or directed effort. Part of their mind was "out of body" while performing other functions.

What if what is considered to be an OBE as described by your example is a "normal state" for the individual and very much of "being in bodY' for them? What if being trapped in your physical body is the exception -- a common disease? I guess I just see little value in exploring OBE in a vacuum -- much more intrigued by how creativity in many forms seems disconnected with body. If you can perform independent mental activities without having to go into a trance, wouldn't that be of greater value?

I experience "working out of body" every day. Why would I wish to stay in a "deeply relaxed state?" I have far too much to do.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Garrette
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On 2013-05-28 01:55, Sean Giles wrote:

Sleep paralysis can be very scary if you don't know what it is, and even then it's still very freaky. If you are experiencing sleep paralysis you are one step away from an OBE.

Did you experience vibrations and loud noise during sleep paralysis?
My sleep paralysis experiences (hypnagogia and hypnopompia are more accurate terms) do not constitute my OBEs, though you are correct that they approach it. Mostly I did not experience vibrations or loud noise. When I had them as a teenager and young adult (when I still believed in the paranormal), they were identical, as far as I can recall: lying on one side, unable to move, unable even to open my eyes, and barely able to breathe. Absolute terror because of the certainty that I was awake and that some force held me down as some thing watched from behind me. I knew two opposing things simultaneously -- that if I turned to look at the thing then it would consume me and that if I failed to turn to look at the thing it would consume me. I was physically unable to turn, though, until at some point I would fall back to full sleep or wake up enough to where I could open my eyes, at which point the entire hallucination vanished, though the terror lingered.

As an adult, I have such experiences only rarely, though I still have them. It was as an adult during such an episode when I felt the thing actually set its weight on the bed behind me. I felt the mattress give to that side and heard the creak of the springs. By this time, though, I had long learned that I could tell myself this was sleep paralysis; this nearly always woke me from the dream. That is what happened on that occasion.
Garrette
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On 2013-05-28 04:11, funsway wrote:
So, how can a cat know when someone is about to die and humans don't?
The question in this case is not "how" but "if." It is certain that many people are convinced that cats do this, and it is nearly certain that cats exhibit behavior which -- in the lack of full information -- leads reasonable people to reach the conclusion you have reached. The few rigorous attempts of which I am aware (actually, I can only recall one off the top of my head, and I only recall its content, not its name) demonstrate that cats only give the appearance of having Death Knowledge but do not possess the actuality of it.

But even were it true that cats have this ability, one would need to exclude mundane explanations before jumping to paranormal ones. There is nothing mysterious about cats having refined physical senses that humans do not possess which allow them to sense certain physical changes. Dogs are known to do this, particularly in regard to some cancers. It is a matter of smell, not otherworldliness.


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How can my Service Dog, Limora, know when someone is ill
Smell. This isn't a mystery.


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-- lie with them for an hour, go outside an throw up and the person get better.
Please do not take it personally when I tell you that I doubt the accuracy of this. I do NOT doubt your sincerity, but I do doubt the facts as you have come to recall them.


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Methinks maybe the Randi types are looking in the wrong place for answers
This puzzles me. Separate from the fact that not even Randi considers his challenge as scientific proof or disproof of any general existence of the paranormal, where else are we to look if not to the claims themselves?

Claimant: X is true.

Skeptic: Wonderful. Please demonstrate X in such a way that precludes non-paranormal explanations.

Claimant: You're looking in the wrong place.


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-- like looking in the tool shed for a can of beans.
See above.


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I hope to have many OBE only because this body is failing me -- so, if I want to complete all of my desired tasks I had better find a different way.
I hope you achieve your wish about OBEs. Regardless of explanation, the experience is intriguing.


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When I hire help and they do the task "as if I were there" is this not also an OBE?
I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you clarify?
Garrette
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On 2013-05-28 06:33, funsway wrote:
Thought you would know I was joking ;-)

except ...

our perceptions of what occurs in any state of physical being must be related to experiences in other states. I would think that any condition in which the seemingly automatic functions of the physical body are disconnected with conscious thought is relevant. For example, there is evidence that some people think on multiple levels simultaneously -- and can sit down and write a symphony or poem or computer program without any conscious process of analysis or directed effort. Part of their mind was "out of body" while performing other functions.

What if what is considered to be an OBE as described by your example is a "normal state" for the individual and very much of "being in bodY' for them? What if being trapped in your physical body is the exception -- a common disease? I guess I just see little value in exploring OBE in a vacuum -- much more intrigued by how creativity in many forms seems disconnected with body. If you can perform independent mental activities without having to go into a trance, wouldn't that be of greater value?

I experience "working out of body" every day. Why would I wish to stay in a "deeply relaxed state?" I have far too much to do.
These are good points. I think that there is more than evidence that such people exist; I think there is proof. I am not sure if it is true, but there is a common claim that U.S. President Garfield could write simultaneously with both hands in different languages. There is not, however, a simultaneous claim of paranormality or "out-of-body" explanation. It is merely an impressive feat. I find that marvelous -- to know that with nothing but what is physically here, humans can accomplish tremendous and amazing things on both grand and local scales.

We should be careful about how we use "OBE." I use it here not as a literal term in which some aspect of me literally separated from my physical existence and observed or accomplished things that I cannot. I use it more as short hand to describe the feeling of the experience. I think your description of events in which automatic functions are disconnected from conscious thought falls in that category.
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 06:39, Garrette wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-28 01:55, Sean Giles wrote:

Sleep paralysis can be very scary if you don't know what it is, and even then it's still very freaky. If you are experiencing sleep paralysis you are one step away from an OBE.

Did you experience vibrations and loud noise during sleep paralysis?
My sleep paralysis experiences (hypnagogia and hypnopompia are more accurate terms) do not constitute my OBEs, though you are correct that they approach it. Mostly I did not experience vibrations or loud noise. When I had them as a teenager and young adult (when I still believed in the paranormal), they were identical, as far as I can recall: lying on one side, unable to move, unable even to open my eyes, and barely able to breathe. Absolute terror because of the certainty that I was awake and that some force held me down as some thing watched from behind me. I knew two opposing things simultaneously -- that if I turned to look at the thing then it would consume me and that if I failed to turn to look at the thing it would consume me. I was physically unable to turn, though, until at some point I would fall back to full sleep or wake up enough to where I could open my eyes, at which point the entire hallucination vanished, though the terror lingered.

As an adult, I have such experiences only rarely, though I still have them. It was as an adult during such an episode when I felt the thing actually set its weight on the bed behind me. I felt the mattress give to that side and heard the creak of the springs. By this time, though, I had long learned that I could tell myself this was sleep paralysis; this nearly always woke me from the dream. That is what happened on that occasion.


That sounds terrifying. Really terrifying! Did it ever happen as you fell into sleep or was it always on waking from a dream?

Mine was always the former. I would get to the very point of falling asleep and at that moment of falling I would go into sleep paralysis instead. Unable to move a muscle, a vibration would start that began in my hands and feet and got more and more uncomfortable as it spread up my arms and legs. This was accompanied by a rushing noise in my head that got louder and louder as I felt myself slowly rising up off the bed. After maybe a minute, it was very uncomfortable and I would be desperately trying to break the hold that it had on me, frightened of what would happen if it reached the creshendo it seemed to be rushing towards. I could eventually break it by shouting (in my head) Thankfully I never had the feeling of an evil presence in the room, as you did. It was bad enough without that!
DWRackley
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Many times I’ve “become aware” that I’m dreaming, and also that I can control what happens in that dream. (The second part is a little tricky, because you can accidentally awaken yourself.) I’ve never equated that to OBE or Astral Projection, which I take to mean one’s consciousness traveling through the REAL world (or a model thereof). Gotta think about that one.

When I was a child, I’d see books that I could read, but when I moved my eyes, I’d awaken. Later I learned to “gradually” scan, and could actually gather information from them (sometimes useful, often not). Always tried to put that down to a subconscious release, but some things came up that I couldn’t account for how that knowledge would have been obtained (whether consciously or otherwise).

One more item, just thought of. I was estranged from my family for a period of about 10 years, hard feelings and no communication whatsoever. During that time, my mother underwent surgery for cancer. I did NOT know exactly what was wrong, only that SOMETHING was urgent, and I spent part of a day calling hospitals in the area (something I’ve NEVER done, before or since) asking if they had admitted anyone by the name of “Rackley” (in those days they could tell you). I found her just as she was coming out of surgery. How would Randy replicate that?

But then, the “rigorous testing” group doesn’t have to deal with it at all; it’s only anecdotal. A nice Out.
...what if I could read your mind?

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Sean Giles
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Quote:
On 2013-05-28 06:33, funsway wrote:
Thought you would know I was joking ;-)

except ...

our perceptions of what occurs in any state of physical being must be related to experiences in other states. I would think that any condition in which the seemingly automatic functions of the physical body are disconnected with conscious thought is relevant. For example, there is evidence that some people think on multiple levels simultaneously -- and can sit down and write a symphony or poem or computer program without any conscious process of analysis or directed effort. Part of their mind was "out of body" while performing other functions.

What if what is considered to be an OBE as described by your example is a "normal state" for the individual and very much of "being in bodY' for them? What if being trapped in your physical body is the exception -- a common disease? I guess I just see little value in exploring OBE in a vacuum -- much more intrigued by how creativity in many forms seems disconnected with body. If you can perform independent mental activities without having to go into a trance, wouldn't that be of greater value?

I experience "working out of body" every day. Why would I wish to stay in a "deeply relaxed state?" I have far too much to do.


I'm happy for you to open the discussion up. I beleive you are refering to the body working on automatic while the mind is in another place. Both controlled by the brain but you are only consiously aware of the latter. An example is driving. Your body is able to carry out complicated tasks and negotiate difficult roads and roundabouts without any concious thought. The mind is then free to wander where it wants.

It would be great to be able to leave your body while it carries on doing whatever it is doing but as far as I'm aware that's not been done. When having an OBE, your real senses are practically shut down and your body is receiving no feedback. It has to be that way to acheive seperation in the first place (if you are bringing the OBE on yourself, as opposed to it being involuntary)

As for "Why would I wish to stay in a "deeply relaxed state?" I have far too much to do.", I can certainly appreciate that. I'm also too busy these days Smile

And like Garette, although I might use terms like OBE, astral projection and astral world, these are only terms to help explain the experience and I'm unconvinced that we actually go anywhere real.
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 07:05, DWRackley wrote:
Many times I’ve “become aware” that I’m dreaming, and also that I can control what happens in that dream. (The second part is a little tricky, because you can accidentally awaken yourself.) I’ve never equated that to OBE or Astral Projection, which I take to mean one’s consciousness traveling through the REAL world (or a model thereof). Gotta think about that one.

When I was a child, I’d see books that I could read, but when I moved my eyes, I’d awaken. Later I learned to “gradually” scan, and could actually gather information from them (sometimes useful, often not). Always tried to put that down to a subconscious release, but some things came up that I couldn’t account for how that knowledge would have been obtained (whether consciously or otherwise).




If you are reading a book and become aware that your eyes are closed and you can still see the pages, this is very similar to those first few seconds as you leave your body. You should at that point be able to push yourself up and out. I have had many spontaneous OBE's from sitting and reading.

And your Lucid dream sounds exactly like an OBE Smile
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It would be great to be able to leave your body while it carries on doing whatever it is doing but as far as I'm aware that's not been done."

I also don't buy into "going anywhere real" except that most people live in a fictional world all the time -- so where would they go?

My experience is that this is done "all of the time" -- but not considered a psi experience -- just norma; for those who do it.

My older brother, for example, always thinks on several other planes at once -- completely separate functions from the task at hand. This is not simple "being on automatic" as he is completely attentive to the work he is doing on a conscious level -- yet is also doing math problems, programming or writing music simultaneously. The are other people who can write a different story with each hand simultaneously. This is not the popular "multi-tasking" but the ability to split the brain into separate functioning units. The point is that what some call OBE may be something else -- it is only the "near death experience" that causes them to admit it.

Recall that Shaman of forced themselves into artificial states for a spiritual view, as did Medieval Mystics though starvation and pain. But the latter wished to learn to "ignore their body" rather than transcend it.

Today the concept of "Self-actaulization" seems dead since folks never get "away from body" -- forever tapped as consumers of imagined physical needs. Depriving them of artificial stimuli like TV and CellPhones will force an OBE as surly as drugs or meditation.

The issue may be that if a Mentalist wishes to use something like OBE as a basis for a demonstration/effect they must consider what is the popular view of such things as opposed to proponents of a specific view. Even if you could "go some where" -- why not explore your inner self?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Garrette
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On 2013-05-28 07:03, Sean Giles wrote:
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On 2013-05-28 06:39, Garrette wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-05-28 01:55, Sean Giles wrote:

Sleep paralysis can be very scary if you don't know what it is, and even then it's still very freaky. If you are experiencing sleep paralysis you are one step away from an OBE.

Did you experience vibrations and loud noise during sleep paralysis?
My sleep paralysis experiences (hypnagogia and hypnopompia are more accurate terms) do not constitute my OBEs, though you are correct that they approach it. Mostly I did not experience vibrations or loud noise. When I had them as a teenager and young adult (when I still believed in the paranormal), they were identical, as far as I can recall: lying on one side, unable to move, unable even to open my eyes, and barely able to breathe. Absolute terror because of the certainty that I was awake and that some force held me down as some thing watched from behind me. I knew two opposing things simultaneously -- that if I turned to look at the thing then it would consume me and that if I failed to turn to look at the thing it would consume me. I was physically unable to turn, though, until at some point I would fall back to full sleep or wake up enough to where I could open my eyes, at which point the entire hallucination vanished, though the terror lingered.

As an adult, I have such experiences only rarely, though I still have them. It was as an adult during such an episode when I felt the thing actually set its weight on the bed behind me. I felt the mattress give to that side and heard the creak of the springs. By this time, though, I had long learned that I could tell myself this was sleep paralysis; this nearly always woke me from the dream. That is what happened on that occasion.


That sounds terrifying. Really terrifying! Did it ever happen as you fell into sleep or was it always on waking from a dream?

Mine was always the former. I would get to the very point of falling asleep and at that moment of falling I would go into sleep paralysis instead. Unable to move a muscle, a vibration would start that began in my hands and feet and got more and more uncomfortable as it spread up my arms and legs. This was accompanied by a rushing noise in my head that got louder and louder as I felt myself slowly rising up off the bed. After maybe a minute, it was very uncomfortable and I would be desperately trying to break the hold that it had on me, frightened of what would happen if it reached the creshendo it seemed to be rushing towards. I could eventually break it by shouting (in my head) Thankfully I never had the feeling of an evil presence in the room, as you did. It was bad enough without that!
I only remember them happening in the middle of the night, not upon falling asleep. I do not recall them as happening after dreaming though I cannot say that they did not.
Garrette
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On 2013-05-28 07:05, DWRackley wrote:
Many times I’ve “become aware” that I’m dreaming, and also that I can control what happens in that dream. (The second part is a little tricky, because you can accidentally awaken yourself.) I’ve never equated that to OBE or Astral Projection, which I take to mean one’s consciousness traveling through the REAL world (or a model thereof). Gotta think about that one.

When I was a child, I’d see books that I could read, but when I moved my eyes, I’d awaken. Later I learned to “gradually” scan, and could actually gather information from them (sometimes useful, often not). Always tried to put that down to a subconscious release, but some things came up that I couldn’t account for how that knowledge would have been obtained (whether consciously or otherwise).

One more item, just thought of. I was estranged from my family for a period of about 10 years, hard feelings and no communication whatsoever. During that time, my mother underwent surgery for cancer. I did NOT know exactly what was wrong, only that SOMETHING was urgent, and I spent part of a day calling hospitals in the area (something I’ve NEVER done, before or since) asking if they had admitted anyone by the name of “Rackley” (in those days they could tell you). I found her just as she was coming out of surgery. How would Randy replicate that?

But then, the “rigorous testing” group doesn’t have to deal with it at all; it’s only anecdotal. A nice Out.
I used to frequently be aware of a dream as a dream, though it happens less lately, and I have never been able to control it (lucid dreaming). One of my sons, however, has lucid dreams frequently and tries to make himself have them. He has some success, but he isn't sure if it's a greater success rate than if he weren't trying to make it happen.

Regarding the experience with your mother's surgery, I don't have an answer, though I can think of at least a couple possible explanations that do not require paranormality. Whether they are correct or not, I don't know, but without really investigating the situation, neither do you. And after the passage of time and without contemporary record-keeping, it likely falls into the category of "Un-investigatable and therefore unknowable." Possibly paranormal? Sure. Likely paranormal? I'm not convinced.

Regarding Randi, I have two comments, and they may seem flippant, but I don't intend them that way; they are key both to such investigations and to an understanding of what the Million Dollar Challenge both is and isn't:

1. It isn't for Randi to replicate anything; it is for the claimant to replicate it

2. If the claimant does not claim an ability to replicate, then it is not suitable for the Million Dollar Challenge. That doesn't make it proven or unproven; it simply makes it not suitable for that challenge.

And the idea of non-replicability as an out for skeptics is mistaken. If anything, it is an out for those who support paranormal explanations:

"I experienced X and can't explain it, but you can't test it so you can't prove another explanation was possible therefore it's true."

The skeptic stance on the other hand is rather like: "You experienced X which you believe to have a paranormal explanation, yet we cannot replicate it and therefore cannot rule out any explanation. That means we simply don't know what happened."
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It has been suggested in this thread that the bibliography disproportionally features studies that support paranormal possibility, but the several "debunkers" I have read cite only opposition studies, and they barely acknowledge the existence of studies with a different outcome; with a sweep of the hand, such outcomes are "impossible."

The category of "paranormal" may, unwisely, lump a range of experiences together that may not be intrinsically connected, in the sense that if you "prove" (or disprove) one, you have proven (or disproven) everything in the alleged category. So, for example, if some out-of-body experiences are valid, that does not mean that alien abductions necessarily occur; or if telepathy is valid, that does not validate psychokinesis.

George
Sean Giles
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On 2013-05-28 07:53, funsway wrote:

...My experience is that this is done "all of the time" -- but not considered a psi experience -- just norma; for those who do it.

My older brother, for example, always thinks on several other planes at once -- completely separate functions from the task at hand. This is not simple "being on automatic" as he is completely attentive to the work he is doing on a conscious level -- yet is also doing math problems, programming or writing music simultaneously. The are other people who can write a different story with each hand simultaneously. This is not the popular "multi-tasking" but the ability to split the brain into separate functioning units. The point is that what some call OBE may be something else -- it is only the "near death experience" that causes them to admit it...



I like what you are saying but the term 'OBE' refers to a specific experience which is very different from what you are describing. It's not a state of mind where you can do anything you want, it's a very particular kind of experience and reality where you believe you have physically left your body (because that is what all your senses tell you is happening). Broadening the term to encompass doing two tasks at once or even working on several levels at once adds confusion to what an OBE actually is (it's difficult enough to articulate the experience to someone who is yet to have one) Smile

Interesting view point all the same Smile
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