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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The words we use » » Anti- "Patter" Movement! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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DanielGreenWolf
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I find it interesting that I leave a topic for a short while and I come back and there's a whole new conversation on it. Allow me to add my own additional thoughts.

Some say my movement is without cause, but my cause is very clear. Even changing a simple word will make people think of it in a different way. Hopefully, by using the word "script" or "presentation" or "story", some will see it as such and treat it as such. Sure, there are bad stories.

Some cry out, "IT WORKED FOR BLACKTONE!" and I respond, "Of course it did. Many things worked for those of the past, and many will hold onto them for dear life because they have been around for so long."

Others say, "It's not a big deal." And in many ways, it isn't for some. Because something Peter said was quite true. He said:

"And you can call your cat's kittens "thoroughbred horses."
Just don't try entering them in the Kentucky Derby!"

And he's absolutely right. For many of the magicians out there, what they say will be nothing more than mere "patter", and what they do wont be "Magic"... it will just be "tricks." Their work will deserve nothing better than those terms, and that is sad to say but it is the honest truth.

I have been trained to be a teacher. And in my opinion, a change of an entire civilization begins with a single thought. Will everyone agree with it? Of COURSE not. An idea everyone agrees with is an idea that shall lead to downfall.

And finally, one says "Don't even THINK about taking away our beloved word!"

In response, I say I have thought about it, I will continue to do so, and I've never felt better about it. Vive le resistance...

-Daniel GreenWolf
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
Che
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Quote:

Some say my movement is without cause, but my cause is very clear. Even changing a simple word will make people think of it in a different way. Hopefully, by using the word "script" or "presentation" or "story", some will see it as such and treat it as such. Sure, there are bad stories.



What "People"????

I have yet to hear anyone other than another Magician refer to the words that I use while performing as "Patter".

Here are the definitions I found for "Patter":

Main Entry: 1pat·ter
Pronunciation: 'pa-t&r
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English patren, from paternoster
transitive senses : to say or speak in a rapid or mechanical manner
intransitive senses
1 : to recite prayers (as paternosters) rapidly or mechanically
2 : to talk glibly and volubly
3 : to speak or sing rapid-fire words in a theatrical performance
- pat·ter·er /-t&r-&r/ noun


Main Entry: 2patter
Function: noun
1 : a specialized lingo : CANT; especially : the jargon of criminals (as thieves)
2 : the spiel of a street hawker or of a circus barker
3 : empty chattering talk
4 a (1) : the rapid-fire talk of a comedian (2) : the talk with which an entertainer accompanies a routine b : the words of a comic song or of a rapidly spoken usually humorous monologue introduced into such a song


The definition you used does make "Patter" seem like a pretty degrading word. But, you only used the degrading definition. The correct definition that is to be used in "our" (Magicians) situation is:

Quote:

the talk with which an entertainer accompanies a routine



Sounds pretty accurate to me.
Peter Marucci
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Debating the use of words is a bit like the current presidential battle in the U.S.:

The voters are being distracted by the non-issue of gay marriages while the economy collapses and the country turns into a police state!

No one ever suggested that the words "patter" or "tricks" be used in front of a lay audience.

So I can't see anything wrong with using them with fellow magicians to whom they have a very clear and defined meaning.

To use anything else would require that the listener understand that word exactly the way the speaker does.

Some years back, Jay Sankey tried to get the word "magician" changed to his invention, the horrible "creative fictionist".
His success can be measured in how THAT caught on!

To underline the last three sentences of my first post here, you can SAY anything you want; for example, you can SAY Donald Trump is a pauper. Just don't try to outspend him!
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Allow me to add my own additional thoughts.

Reads like 'Fresh Fish Sold Here Today' to me.

How could we not?
Who else would be writing?
Is it possible to subtract a statement?
Do you know anyone else's thoughts?
When is a thought not additional?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Che
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Quote:
On 2004-02-29 04:05, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Re: Allow me to add my own additional thoughts.

Reads like 'Fresh Fish Sold Here Today' to me.

How could we not?
Who else would be writing?
Is it possible to subtract a statement?
Do you know anyone else's thoughts?
When is a thought not additional?




WOW..........you threw me WAY off on THAT one!!!!!!

I don't have the foggiest idea as to what you are talking about?!?!?!?
Peter Marucci
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Daniel Greenwolf writes: "I have been trained to be a teacher. And in my opinion, a change of an entire civilization begins with a single thought."

Quite true.

In my "previous life" as a newspaper editor, an ever-increasing comment from younger reporters was, "Well, they know what I mean," when called to task about grammatical or spelling errors.

And they might possibly be right; but that's not the point.

The point is that, the very people who read (and hear) your material are the ones you are trying to win over to your point of view.

And, if they can't trust you to be right about the things that they know (the spelling of words, for example), then why should they trust you to be right about the things that they don't know?

The rules on spelling and grammar are not arbitrary. They are there for a reason. You have just read that reason.
Dennis Michael
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Peter,

Unfortunately, there are some of us who try to spell correctly, however, in our haste, our rereading of our postings, our background education, etc., we do not have a good foundation in this writing area, hence, mispellings, run-on sentences, to lazy to writ it in a word processor and transfer it over to this site, you know...the list goes on-and-on, etc.

(Sentence above written intentionally to demostrate the numerous grammar errors.)
Dennis Michael
Che
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Daniel (Malak),
Let me know if you got my PM. I'm not sure if it sent.
Jonathan Townsend
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Communication requires both content and meaning within context.

What one says can be music to the heart and food for thought. Such requires consideration.

Hence the example of parsing a questionable sentence above. Was it musical to someone?

Perhaps the issue is not so much patter as chatter?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
DanielGreenWolf
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::just sitting back, the silent child of Pan smiles. He knew his work was done::

-Daniel
C.O.P.
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
Che
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So where has this gone? What have we gotten out of it? Oh well.....It was fun while it lasted.
oldguy
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Isn't "patter" just a pompous way of saying "talk" as "gig" is a pompous way of saying "job?"
Jonathan Townsend
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Patter is what happens when you have nothing to talk about. IMHO the worst kind is that which tells people what they can plainly see... as if they were somewhere else listening on a radio.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Mike Wild
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Some "patter" can be entertaining, for example, when it is done obviously as an assumed character trait. You'll notice Curtis does it every once in awhile in his routines, the CSB from "Silverado" comes to mind. He patters on for 20 or so seconds, and then, in an entertaining way, comments to his spectator (Reed) that he talks too much and too quickly. It made me chuckle (it made Reed chuckle as well), and most importantly it carried the routine through, instead of holding it back. It's the forced monotone blather and stating of the obvious that we can all do without.

Mike
<><>< SunDragon Magic ><><>

"Question Reality... Create Illusion"
oldguy
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Peter, do you really think our economy is collapsing and we are turning into a police state? I think you bought into our liberal party's propaganda. Tom
Jonathan Townsend
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Anyone willing to try using the ten page speech from Atlas Shrugged that begins 'So you think money is...' as patter for a coin trick?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mkiger
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A. If by patter is the words you say during a trick.

and

B. If those words do not appreciably change from perfomance to performance.

Then that sounds like a script to me, and you are juggling definitions.

If however, you are referring to the lame jabber that comes with a lot of tricks and is performed verbatum by most everyone who bought that trick, then I agree that it should be banned/burnt at the stake/etc.

This is magic. A fairly childish activity for adults to engage in, I do it because I like it, not because it has any great relevance.
DanHarlan
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You can use whatever word you want. It's your choice. Perhaps your choice will affect your perceptions. Perhaps just thinking about making a choice will make you think more about what you say and why. If you like the way you are perceived by others, then you may not wish to change.

My choice was simple. I grew up in the theatre. The words spoken during a performance came from a little book called a "script." Many of them came from a mythical place called Samuel French, Inc. Oddly, I now live about 4 blocks from the West Coast location of this mythical place. It's just a small store on Sunset Blvd filled with little books. You can buy one of these books, but that doesn't mean you can perform anything from it. No. They want you to pay them a "royalty" based upon many factors. Here, for educational purposes (fair use) is part of their text:

"...please give us the number of performances intended, dates of production, your seating capacity and admission fee."

They take these little books seriously. Oh, and you have to give notice on all programs and advertising that you've made "arrangements" with them to perform this script. Plus, you have to give credit to the author, too! Whoa.
We're just talking about words here! These are the same words you and I use everyday. Often, exactly the way we use them. The real difference, perhaps, is that someone took the time to think about which words to use (how, when and why) and then committed them to a "finished" form. Just because it's a script does not mean it contains flowery Shakespearian language. Some quick examples (fair use, again!):

"Thank you! Thank you so much! I am so happy to see so many happy, smiling faces in this audience here tonight." -- Eric Bogosian, Pounding Nails In the Floor With My Forehead

"Wait a minute now, the fat one didn't stay the full week, and his name was -- Quinn or Quincy." -- Ira Levin, Deathtrap

"Swimming ain't so bad either." -- David Mamet, The Duck Variations

No matter what you say -- if you say it regularly, with intent, during a performance -- it is your script. If you want to use jargon to express the same idea, that's your choice.

"No, the clean one." -- Dan Harlan, The Vanishing Sushi
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www.danharlanmagic.com
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 22:54, al_magicdude wrote:
Personally, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Plus, it's only magicians who use that word.


Sorry, Alex, but no cigar on that one at all. In operetta and Broadway musicals, a "patter song" is one that has rapidly moving, almost meaningless lyrics -- about like much of the magicians' patter that Malak is speaking of in the first place.


Quote:
On 2004-03-15 18:47, oldguy wrote:
Isn't "patter" just a pompous way of saying "talk" as "gig" is a pompous way of saying "job?"


No, not pompous. It's what linguists would call "argot" or "jargon" -- a term specific to a particular group of people. Magic has its own specific argot.
"The Swatter"

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Stuart Hooper
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Why does everything have to be a movement? Bizzare movements, anti-patter movements...

Am I the only one who is driven nuts by this? Movements, groups, herds...sorry, I was taught to be prejudice against ALL GROUPS, and NO individuals.
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