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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The words we use » » Anti- "Patter" Movement! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Popo
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Valparaiso, IN
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Doesn't anybody in this forum work or have a life!!! Must have too much time on your hands to be on about this one. It doesn't matter what I say I say, it only matters what I say. And now that that's said, good-night!
rcad
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St-Eustache
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Popo,

I almost reported your post.

You have the right to think that discussing such a subject is a waste of time. Just don't read or add to such topics. But when you judge people who feel it is an interesting subject, you are out of line.

I am sick and tired of uneducated people who have very limited intelectual understanding and vision, about magic or any other subject, barge in with such inapropriate comments. Yes, this is an intelectual discussion and an interesting one at that, and I hope comments on this subject will continue to be added here.

If I may add something myself, I agree that patter is a jargon well understood by all magicians but since magic is well alive, it is growing and changing. We use categories to describe the type of magic we do. Still, certain categories are still debated like mentalism or bizarre magic. But above that debate, there is still a general consensus as to what they are all about.

So what's wrong with using more specific words for the kind of "patter" we deliver as well? I believe that "script" is a more general word for our need. For example, a musical act would have no "patter" but would still have a script, no? So an act with "patter" wouldn't have a "script"? No. "Script" is definately more apropriate and precise.

At the heart of this debate is rather, I think, the fact that the word "patter" is becoming more and more associated with a certain kind of "script". I am not saying that all of those who still say they use patter have merely descriptive scripts, but rather that the "perception" of "patter" is becoming associated with it, especially, but not exclusively, amongst younger magicians. Language is all about perceptions and shared conventions. When it is alive, it changes and that's a good thing. In fact, this debate is a healthy sign. I think that with time, the word "patter" will become obsolete and will only be found in magic history books or be used to describe bad, uninteresting and shallow scripts.

I use scripts, not patter and that is, in every sense of the word. Smile

Richard
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." Albert Einstein
Stuart Hooper
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Mithrandir
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Hey just so it's clear, I'm not agreeing with Popo, I just have a problem with movements. I think we should be open to *every* possibility, or else we'll miss out. Movements tend to say, "THIS was is RIght." Dangerous mentality, IMO.


That being said, Rcad, if Popo is wrong saying none of us have lives, why lower yourself to his level by calling him uneducated, and possesing a limited understanding and little vision?

:stout:
rcad
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St-Eustache
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Mithrandir,

My comments about Popo's post were not aimed at you at all. That thought never even crossed my mind.

You simply raised a question on which I have no opinion since I believe that "movements" only are such when you read about them in history books and still, that can be debated for ages. We'll just have to wait and see if anti-patter will be considered a movement in the future (if we live long enough).

As far as the way I handled Popo's post, I don't consider standing up for freedom of expression as lowering myself. He came in here to insult and silence those with the ability and the need to reflect upon what they feel is important to them. Maybe I should simply have reported his post but my silence would also have sent the message to all readers that making such comments was an accepted behavior here. Well, sorry, but not when I'm around, it ain't. Had it been lost somewhere in the midst of this discussion, it is true that indifference would have been the best attitude. But nobody responded nor continued the debate. His comment probably wasn't the reason for it but just in case other members may have been intimidated, I just had to put him in his place.

Granted, my comments may have sounded politicaly incorrect but they were not based on an assumption or prejudice. He didn't simply have a different opinion (something, as I said, he is entitled to have) but he was clearly judgemental about the act of reflecting itself. Thus, reflexion is not something he does. He still has that right. But insulting those who do, clearly demonstrates that he doesn't reflect out of personal choice but rather because he is incapable of even grasping the benefits of reflexion.

Political correctness has silenced too many thinkers, including myself, in the past decades. No more. May those with intelligence speak their minds so we can all make this world a better place.

Cheers! Smile

Richard
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." Albert Einstein
DanielGreenWolf
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Waterbury, CT
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Quote:
On 2004-04-04 13:56, mithrandir wrote:
I just have a problem with movements. I think we should be open to *every* possibility, or else we'll miss out. Movements tend to say, "THIS was is RIght." Dangerous mentality, IMO.


Well, Mithrandir, I want you to know that, if you had read the original post (which was posted LAST YEAR by myself), you would see that the term "movement" was meant as a joke. My message remians the same, and YES, I do believe I am right. That's part of an opinion. I am open to others' opinions (as you can see by the other posts on this thread) but I do believe I "was is right"... whatever that means. No one HAS to believe me. In fact, outside of my students, no one has to even listen to me.


Quote:
That being said, Rcad, if Popo is wrong saying none of us have lives, why lower yourself to his level by calling him uneducated, and possesing a limited understanding and little vision?
:stout:


HA! Just so you know, I HAVE no life! I'm also TWICE as limited & uneducated as Rcad says Popo is and my Vision is WAY smaller!
But then again, I continue to find humor in the fact that this post refuses to die. And, as I started this post, I have a right to say so. Thanks for the unending entertainment, folks.
Smile
-Much love,
Daniel GreenWolf
Celtic Magician

www.GreenWolfMagic.com
MagicalArtist
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Hobart, Indiana
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This reminds me of a quote from The Dramatic Art of Magic by Louis C. Haley (1910; courtesy of the Learned Pig Collection)

" I want to urge a reformation in the character of the lines used in the experiments of the magician of today. I would like to see the word tricks cut out of our magic nomenclature; for, one who does tricks is a trickster, and that term is as belittling to a magician as to call him a fakir. He is neither trickster nor fakir; rather an educated gentleman-- an artist, presenting as a magician some of the occult wonders of Psychology and the natural sciences. The word "patter" too, always strikes me as if it might be associated with "parrot." Patter has no purpose but to interest the novice, who likes to read and dream of what others have done, and what he might do.”

I cite this only to show that this is not a new complaint. (Another telling quote from that book is where the author mentions that magic is beginning to be regarded as primarily children’s entertainment! And you thought that was something that happened due to television!)
Daniel Faith
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Neenah, Wisconsin
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I have NO problem with using words like patter or gig. They are just words. It doesn't matter. Changing them won't change the way people think.

I doesn't even make sense to be debating them. I will continue to use them. It doesn't matter! Don't over analyze it!
Daniel Faith
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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We use the words "patter", "trick", "gig" amongst ourselves.

it seems inappropriate to use performing argot in front of laymen and especially on the job. The audience does not usually need to know your coins are by Lassen and your wand by Wayne. They do not care that your cups are by Sherwood and your card moves right from Erdnase.

A simpler question to those why feel the use of words to set the stage for the magic is unnecessary:

What specifically, do you suggest as a method of engaging their attention and imagination?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Alex Linian
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Peru
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Quote:
On 2004-03-31 15:26, Bill Palmer wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-02-13 22:54, al_magicdude wrote:
Personally, I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Plus, it's only magicians who use that word.


Sorry, Alex, but no cigar on that one at all. In operetta and Broadway musicals, a "patter song" is one that has rapidly moving, almost meaningless lyrics -- about like much of the magicians' patter that Malak is speaking of in the first place.



What I meant by that is that I have never met an spectator who refered to the words we use as "patter". So I don't really think it's a big deal. Just my opinion though
Jonathan Townsend
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Ossining, NY
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I've never met a person outside of NY/entertainment that uses the word 'patter' outside of the context of 'the pitter patter of little feet'.

If the jargon helps, good.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
flowJuggler
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East Coast USA
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"The quality of our thoughts and ideas can only be as good as the quality of our language." - George Carlin

I first encountered the term "patter" in the beginning of my exploration of magic, as a kid. It was probably mentioned in the instructions for scotch and soda or circle to square. Back then I did what I now cringe at. I repeated the patter word for word, however unnatural, until the miracle concluded, then I returned to normal self. Associated with these awful scripts, the word 'patter' connoted to me empty narration.

As I studied magic more, and developed my own presentations, I was hesitant to describe what I said as patter. If I did refer to it at all, it would be as my lines (from a script). After years of hearing others that I respect using the term patter, it no longer carries with it the memories of those early days of my magical presentations. I still don't use the term as I've gotten used to not, but the word doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is not the word, but the empty narration that I mistakenly associated with the word. Speaking that does not develop plot, character, or connect with the audience; this is not 'patter' but poor presentation.

Perhaps a 'movement' against poor presentation might be more apt.

'GIG'...I LOVE the word gig. I can't say or do it enough.

And the quote that started off this posting...I think it is somehow relevant.

-P
Über goodest signature ever.
VarietyArtsBlog.com
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