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Jonathan Townsend
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Shane Wiker's site is back up. There is a clip of Mickey there. Smile

http://www.magicshane.com
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Backdoor
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Thanks Mr. Townsend, I was going to mention this to jonnyb but the site was not working. But as many have said here, Mr. Silver's work has been seen by countless thousands, here and around the world...That's a big reason why he's in Italy now and is being requested about the world for his work. jonnyb is definitely entitled to his oppinion, but it seems borne out of some sort of frustration in not yet ever seeing Mr. Silver's work. Actually his posts are quite a bit extreme in his critique, mostly because "he" just hasn't seen a demo yet. Remarkable. I actually just receieved my demo from Mr. Silver just over the weekend and all I can tell you is that Mr. Silver is quite remarkable. I'd go further to tell you that I think Vernon, Ramsey, Bobo, etc., would all be blown away by Mr. Silver's ability, creativity, inventiveness, and personableness. He is clearly something quite special with a real gift to give to the coin magic fraternity, and I'm sure he will, he seems to be that sort of guy.

So jonnyb, just relax and calm down. It's quite presumptious of you to naysay here about something you admittedly haven't seen yet. Hopefully with Mr. Townsend's post you can see for yourself, but I hear it's just a small snippet of what Mr. Silver does and has done, so don't come back here and sell it short because you're already a bit mad about all this attention to Mr. Silver. Just look at it this way, Mr. Silver is being requested all over the world for what he does and he hasn't sold anything to anyone, not even dvd, book, or manuscript...he has not charged anyone anything, not even postage. But he has clearly shared a tremendous amount of his work. Some here down him for not exposing his secrets just yet, but most here didn't expose even a look at their work until they sold it. I'm sure Mr. Silver will make all this stuff available when he decides it's best...and that should be good enough for anyone that has experienced Mr. Silver's tremendous genorosity. It is what it is, and what you're saying is most definitely what it's not, not even a little bit.

Oh, and to down Mr. Vinny is quite ridiculous also. His fine generosity is also well-known, not to mention his willingness to assist others all over the world with real examples of what's what. He is also a very good and prolific coin man. Just wondering exactly what have you done, and for who? Your harsh criticisms here imply tremendous shortsightedness and overall lack of awareness and appreciation, not to mention an unhealthy dose of disrespect for no good reason.
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
JTW
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Here is my question to you How long are you willing to wait for something? I'm not talking exclusively about magic either.

(I know this scenario is antithetical to their organization but bear with me)
What would you think if Apple began to hype the newest greatest IPod ever. Further, in this hypothetical Apple shows the thing to some people then travels around showing the thing to fans everywhere. A year later they start hyping a new piece of technology and then another. The market, although promised, hasn't seen the release of any of the items that were promised.
What would you think of Apple if they continued this pattern?

There is no ill will toward Mickey or Vinny in this post. Don't read it as such. I'm asking a simple question in regards to marketing practices and consumer patience.
Backdoor
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And I tell you JTW as I said to jonnyb, "relax." Because the bottomline is, when Mr. Silver does release the material, you will most certainly buy it to learn such marvelous magic that obviously you cannot teach yourself. I will not entertain you down a road you have already prefabricated to make your point regarding Mr. Silver. Be glad in all your supposed waiting, that along the way you have reveived many sips of water in the way of gracious offerings by Mr. Silver. What you want are the secrets of how the thing works, pure and simple. But it is not your's to give or decide upon when that happens. Mr. Silver is not Apple or IPOD, etc....These companies, with all due respect, gave you nothing for free. Mr. Silver most certainly did, whether you appreciate that or not. Most here want to see his work as badly as you do, but remain patient...I suggest that to you too. And remember, no matter how long a man walks across a desert parched from thirst, it takes but one cup of water to quench the deepest of thirsts, just one. Be patient my friend. Mr. Silver will do what he say he will do, I'm quite sure. So, how long will I wait you ask, as long as it takes, especially since I can't make it happen any faster than it's happening, and neither can you. Only thing is, I will not replace my respectful composure with eradic inuendo, insult, outbursts, etc. while I wait. This is akin to "making a scene" or when a small child get's tired of waiting and throws a temper tantrum all over the floor...Hey, do you remember, "...Are we there yet?"

Be patient and take in the scenery along this most interesting trip. One I doubt you've ever been down before, quite like this one in coin magic with this sort of fellow. For some reason in all this, I keep thinking of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (the original one)...Here's a coloring book for you to play with; look at the characters in the movie and see if you can pick out what parts you and jonnyb would play in it, and who guys like Mr. Silver and Mr. Vinny would be. Lotta similarities here.
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
JTW
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You are presumptuous on many instances Backdoor. I do not care about the technique. I have never been interested in the technique. I've been in magic long enough to realize technique is almost meaningless when it comes to creating magic. I am on no journey with anyone else regarding this "move" and I'm not sipping the water. You have obviously never walked a desert. One cup of water would only delay death for a short time. AS for my patience that is infinite because I'm not waiting on anything. My interest has been this marketing push.
From now on you would do well to not transfer any preconcieved notions of who or what I am or pretend to know what I'm waiting for. You know little of either. Ok?

To the scenario I proposed;
As I stated Silver isn't Apple and the technique isn't Ipod (as also stated) no inferences were made that they were. I used an example that could be similiar to this situation but in a completely different industry. My meaning was that in other circumstances people have little patience and will seek out something if the want becomes great enough- even if that means seeking out a derivation or another product that appears similiar. Upon release of the promised product the majority would go out and buy it anyway (this is evident from the Ipod craze). In the meantime another company stepped in and made some cash off of it (look at HP Iriver, Samsung and Archos). I was wondering if you felt that this carries over into the marketplace of magic- or if people have a longer "wait time" simply because of the nature of the industry. An example would be "Torn Assunder" and then years later Hollingworth's "Reformation".

Are you ok with someone possibly publishing a similiar technique? In 300 years when none of us are here the published record will be. Who gets credit then? Will this site be here? Who knows, books seem to have a fairly long shelf life though (pardon the pun).

I am Charlie.
Jonathan Townsend
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Since when does the gift of Mickey become license to presume upon eachother, to berate eachother and to project upon eachother in the cause of the Mickey?

And who is Charlie?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
KirkG
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JohnnyB,

By the way, you misunderstood Vinny's comment about coins and sleeves. He is not talking about the secret technique of sleeve, but the oft poorly performed process of plucking coins from the sleeves as a matter of production.

Kirk
Charlie Justice
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Hey wait a minute JTW....I AM CHARLIE.
Is that a reference to Flowers For Algernon?

Backdoor, I too am not 'parched from thirst'. I also find it ironic that you've admonished some for doing the very thing you did with your comparison to the Wonka brats:

You write: " Only thing is, I will not replace my respectful composure with eradic inuendo, insult, outbursts, etc. while I wait."

It seems to me that you put down the golden ticket to insult JTW.

When this Silver hype morphs into a more tangible reality than heresay, demos and hype, then I am certain that I will 'sip' from the Silver well and benefit from its waters.

I hardly think that his offerings will quench my thirst on the journey through the desert of sleights and subtleties. I do, however, anticipate I will enjoy the refreshing new flavor.

Mickey is not my oasis. I have seen the demo...over and over and over again. I got it. I love it. I'm patient. I believe, however, that JTW has some good things to think about. Don't take it personally, just dynamically. I think you'll see what he's talking about if you'll just step out of the bubble room and listen.
JTW
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In the post above mine Backdoor asks if I characterized myself in Willy Wonka, who I would be.

Those that question the majority have always been attacked. Einsten- Copernicus- Newton- Silver- JTW (sorry couldn't resist:) )

Wooo HOO the Hurricane is gone! Still gusting wind and it's much much colder- only 60 degrees. Yesterday it was 87! Down here anything below 70 is considered freezing Smile
Cheers,
JTW
Backdoor
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JTW, you are hardly Charlie. But it does speak to your hallucinative trek you might've taken through any desert. Perhaps you should've drank the water, ya think? And interesting to see you put Mr. Silver amongst other noted geniuses, but criticize him the way you do...Even more curious is that you also (even in what must be apparent jest) include yourself on such a list (oops, couldn't help myself either). I don't know you beyond your posts, but I would bet you're not on this level list, anywhere you've supposedly traveled in the world.

And Charlie Justice, it was JTW and jonnyb that started the assaults here, and truly quite unnecessarily so. Tell'ya what, I will stand by Mr. Silver on this one, you continue to stand by these others. I think by their posts, the differences are clearly seen as to character. Obviously in the way of ability and good will toward men there is no comparison, in or outside the Bubble Room. Incidentally, the Wonka Brats weren't just the children. Hey, and who would Mr. Silver be in the movie? And do you really think JTW, with all of with what you believe truth in his posts, could win the part of Charlie. Doubt it, and doubt if you could either. Interesting to note, it seems that Mr. Silver as a kid might've indeed been able to be Charlie, and as an older man well, you know.
-Only The Shadow Knows...Y'know?
JTW
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Backdoor can you categorize my assaults? Please quote all the places that I have assaulted ANYONE. Please, also include any criticism of mine to Mickey for anything other than over hype.

*edited* here are all my posts with dates in both active threads concerning this topic


Taken From the "Earth Breaking Coin Sleight" thread.


Sept. 30th Great Marketing- Always leave them wanting more eh?

I agree with Dan. If you don't make a move out of it...it isn't a move.

I recently saw a guy do a vanish that was, well, awful. I asked him why he did that particular vanish the way he did. He didn't have an answer, he had never thought about "why" only the how. I think most workers would agree a vanish shouldn't be about where the coin isn't. I think Ramsay understood this concept very well, the object being manipulated was in a "hazy" kind of focus. The object was there of course but there was something more important to look at elsewhere.

I hope I am being clear I haven't had much sleep so I may be rambling, but then again maybe I'm not...You never know until someone says "Hey man you are rambling, just stop already!" However One could probably argue...just kidding.
later taters!

Oct 1. I thik Al may have been refering to the "Mickey Silver" phenomena. Could be wrong but that's how I read it.

Oct 2. Who said he was giving anything away? I like Mickey he is a very nice guy and as I have said before it isn't his techniques that are revolutionary its his thinking about them that is. His SUV is a coin pass. But the approach and thinking he has applied to the sleight is what really sets it apart. The Silver Subtlety is, by Mickey's own admission and as the title suggests, a subtlety. So how different is it and is it that revolutionary as he is claiming?

In my opinion there are two possible things that could be happening here.
1: Mickey is wanting us to follow his thinking so that we can understand where the sleight originated from, so that when he tells us what it is or how to accomplish it we can appreciate the intention of the subtlety. If this is the case I commend him

2: He is creating a buzz around the technique so that when it is released (for sale) to the community, there will be a significant pre-built market for it and he can increase sales. What I mean is this is a well crafted pitch and if this is the case I commend him.

Granted I am skeptical by nature and sometimes look at things in very basic terms, sometimes I oversimplify a situation. There is always the possibilty that I'm wrong on both accounts. I guess I'll wait and see.

Mickey don't mis-understand I'm looking forward to what you have to say, just being cautious as is my nature to jump aboard.

Oct 3. So there is now a "Mickey Silver Code"?

Oct 8. So now we have gone to taking 4 non-moves (the reason "why" they are successful) and changed them into a move.

Hmmm...

Yes actually I AM interested...but not in what you think.

My interest is- Will this strategy of Mickey's pays off.

I'm interested in his use of bold type. I'm interested in his constant use of his name throughout the posts, guaranteeing a hit by the search engine.
I am interested because this type of marketing requires no overhead (other than time) therefore his ROI will be greater. I'm interested in what his profit will be

Looking forward to his next "move"

Trouble is he hasn't "given" anything IMO. He has told us his thoughts of why he came up with whatever it is. So far there hasn't been any substance to the posts only theoretical rhetoric. Even if you're giving something away you can still market it. Marketing creates awareness about something. That is it's function. Mickey is Marketing.

Those of us that are professional performers (I don't mean to imply that any of you aren't because I don't know with the exception of a few) should be thinking about these things already. Every sleight we use and every effect we choose to perform should go through a rigorous evaluation. When something is written (in relation to our art) we should attempt to understand what the author is trying to convey and how we can apply the information.

The friction here isn't caused by what he's saying so much as how he is saying it. If Dai Vernon himself came on the Café' and proclaimed to have brought the most incredible card move back from the great beyond and then proceeded to hype it without delivering anything, I would be on here asking the same questions.

You are really scaring me mb17, the way you're talking its like Mickey is the second coming.

Now to the concern of apologizing- for what? Asking questions? I get that Mickey believes he has taken some subtleties and turned them into a move. To me this is poor thinking. The process is backward. We are striving for the absence of moves.

I am getting tired of you claiming you "get it" and that I don't. I'm curious as to what you think I don't get or better yet what it is that you do get? I'm fairly intelligent and well read. I have been able to grasp some fairly archaic concepts in my day. If you truly get it then you can explain it without quoting Mickey and resorting to leaps of faith.

Many of the guys on here went ape about the SUV. I said it was a retention pass nothing more. I also said the thinking behind the sleight was the important part NOT the technique itself. To me this is a simple concept because the way we think about things and approach problems based on that thinking can create a world of difference in our solutions. If you want to continue to goad me on here that's fine I can take it. I'm only asking the questions that others don't want to.

Remember the hype over the JW grip? Just a few months ago there was a guy named Shoot remember him? There was thread after thread. The buzz was in the air Shoot was the next big thing.

A magician doesn't create magic with sleights or subtlety, those help but those alone do not get the job done. The intention, as Al put it, does. I've read all of Mickey's posts. I don't think that he and Al are talking about the same thing, maybe I'm wrong and I'll step up and admit it if I am. For now though I would like to hear from someone OTHER than Mickey's close confidants about this thing.

I do believe I have a grasp of something he is talking about. I do not know the specific "WHAT" nor will I pretend to. The "WHAT" is irrelevant.
Here is what I get;
We are all in search of "the perfect move" the "undetectable sleight", "the greatest routine" et cetera. This industry generates millions of dollars a year by dangling that elusive carrot in front of us and that is the truth.
Mickey is dangling yet another carrot. 6 pages of posts and many of those are posts proclaiming glory unto Mickey! Now there are a few lone voices in the herd asking why we are clamoring over ourselves.

Will this sleight revolutionize coin magic, I hardly think so. That statement isn't being cynical it’s the reality. Then again this could be the defining moment for a generation of conjurers.

Mb17, Sorry you took my post so personally. You took some shots, I answered them pointedly. I know this will go nowhere (like a war in the mid east).

I have commended Mickey on a number of things. My purpose here was not to criticize him. I think "what" he is doing has merit. I meant to ask questions and offer opinions as others had. One of my faults is that I enjoy a good argument and find it hard to relenquish once it has begun.

I further apologize if you think I was bullying you. I wasn't. I was only asking pointed questions to you because you seemed to direct many of your posts to me.

The reason I posted the way I did (offering qualifications) was because of the tone that I detected in the posts, perhaps I misunderstood and you were not goading me. For the record I have never belittled you or anyone else here on this board. I have never called anyone here un-intelligent and I'm sorry you thought that that was what I did. I voiced frustration at posts you aimed at me and perceived them to be speaking to me as if I was a child. Your assumptions of me were unwarranted and I attempted to clarify things.

Yes there are many men out there better than me, there will always be someone better. I live to be better tommorrow, than I was today.

Oct 9.Have we met? I'm sure that I won't remember any of this tommorrow...

This thread has been wrought with disagreements.

Let's change the focus.

Mickey theorized the value of the subtleties he cited were not in where the coin was but where it wasn't. He also surmises that by turning the subtleties into a move that this advances things. I think that the attitude you convey (whether it is during the execution of a sleight or using a subtlety)is important.

I'll pose this question that I have thought about for many years.
What makes a subtlety work and can they be more effective than a sleight?

Why?

Oct 24. I'll echo Jonathan's post on the "other" Silver thread. Why do we have to resort to name calling?
Vinny if I'm not mistaken johnnyb parenthetically said he meant no offense to you. I'm not defending him in any way I only offer what was posted for your consideration.

I do appreciate your candidness on the issue of the DVD.

Why is it that those of us that ask questions of intention, and claims of greatness are attacked?

To those of you that support Mickey; Are you looking for blanket acceptance by everyone to the claims Vinny and Mickey have made? The question that Mickey or Vinny have been generous in the past or won't be in the future isn't under attack. The question of this sleight being everything it's being hailed as IS.

There seems to be two camps here (there is a third but they never leave the pick a card forum )
1 Those who accept everything that Mickey and Vinny claim about this sleight.They require no proof as to its ability to live up to the claims.

2 Those that question the claims (sleight and hype) and desire proof i.e publication in some form to decide for themselves.

Those of you that say "relax" and "wait and see all your hopes and dreams will come true when Mickey finally reveals this" are going on faith (except for maybe Vinny, who I'm under the impression knows the mechanics). But those that ask the questions are attacked by people that have never even seen the sleight!


taken from Current thread

Oct 23 Star of which show Vinny?

Oct 24 Here is my question to you How long are you willing to wait for something? I'm not talking exclusively about magic either.

(I know this scenario is antithetical to their organization but bear with me)
What would you think if Apple began to hype the newest greatest IPod ever. Further, in this hypothetical Apple shows the thing to some people then travels around showing the thing to fans everywhere. A year later they start hyping a new piece of technology and then another. The market, although promised, hasn't seen the release of any of the items that were promised.
What would you think of Apple if they continued this pattern?

There is no ill will toward Mickey or Vinny in this post. Don't read it as such. I'm asking a simple question in regards to marketing practices and consumer patience.

Oct 24 You are presumptuous on many instances Backdoor. I do not care about the technique. I have never been interested in the technique. I've been in magic long enough to realize technique is almost meaningless when it comes to creating magic. I am on no journey with anyone else regarding this "move" and I'm not sipping the water. You have obviously never walked a desert. One cup of water would only delay death for a short time. AS for my patience that is infinite because I'm not waiting on anything. My interest has been this marketing push.
From now on you would do well to not transfer any preconcieved notions of who or what I am or pretend to know what I'm waiting for. You know little of either. Ok?

To the scenario I proposed;
As I stated Silver isn't Apple and the technique isn't Ipod (as also stated) no inferences were made that they were. I used an example that could be similiar to this situation but in a completely different industry. My meaning was that in other circumstances people have little patience and will seek out something if the want becomes great enough- even if that means seeking out a derivation or another product that appears similiar. Upon release of the promised product the majority would go out and buy it anyway (this is evident from the Ipod craze). In the meantime another company stepped in and made some cash off of it (look at HP Iriver, Samsung and Archos). I was wondering if you felt that this carries over into the marketplace of magic- or if people have a longer "wait time" simply because of the nature of the industry. An example would be "Torn Assunder" and then years later Hollingworth's "Reformation".

Are you ok with someone possibly publishing a similiar technique? In 300 years when none of us are here the published record will be. Who gets credit then? Will this site be here? Who knows, books seem to have a fairly long shelf life though (pardon the pun).

I am Charlie.


Oct 24In the post above mine Backdoor asks if I characterized myself in Willy Wonka, who I would be.

Those that question the majority have always been attacked. Einsten- Copernicus- Newton- Silver- JTW (sorry couldn't resist:) )

Wooo HOO the Hurricane is gone! Still gusting wind and it's much much colder- only 60 degrees. Yesterday it was 87! Down here anything below 70 is considered freezing
Cheers,
JTW
SOHA
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Here is question regarding the retention of vision vanish:

Aparently Dai Vernon's handeling was so good that he would have his children guessing if he really put the coin in the hand or not, and they were never right.
According to what I've heard, his illusion was so good that when he asked another magician to show him a retention vanish, the magician refused saying that he would never do it as good as him.
Who here ever so him perform the vanish in his prime, and why is Mickey's version considered so much better?

Will
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-10-24 13:15, SOHA wrote:...Aparently Dai Vernon's handeling was so good that he would have his children guessing if he really put the coin in the hand or not, and they were never right...


Where did that come from? There is a great quote from his son about the guy: "As a father he was a great magician".

Anyway he did the Crawford pass very well and pretty much handed that "crown" to Roth decades ago. If you look carefully at the Crawford method, then at the Roth handling, you will see the thumb and finger action that needs to be concealed and how gravity allows this at the expense of some angle restrictions. Mickey has solved the finger action problem and does his pass pretty much without angle concerns.
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SOHA
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Quote:
On 2005-10-24 13:55, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Where did that come from?


I've heard it from different sources.
At least in one volume of the Revelation series, he (Dai Vernon) tells a whole story of how he would get his children to guess if it was in the hand or not.
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Vernon did not do the Crawford retention vanish. Vernon's vanish is well described in Bobo's and I think you will find that his vanish is appreciably different and actually solves the problem that was apparently unsolved until Mickey came along. The anecdote is from the Vernon chronicles and as far as I can see, if you can fool a child who has his pocket money hinging on which hand he guesses the coin is in, then you can fool ANYONE.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
Jonathan Townsend
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The item "A Coin Vanish" from Hilliard's Greater Magic, reprinted in MCM in page 40 of the electronic version of the book, may be the way folks adopted the Crawford pass for closeup use. At the last NY Magic Symosium in 87 Dai Vernon did the vanish up at shoulder level just like the illustrations in Bobo's. He must have been 90 years old at the time. He also did the wallnuts and glass trick and demonstraged the wand spin vanish. Big smile here remembering that evening's show.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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He may well have done is that way in one show that you saw, but ultimately all we have is the printed word to mark history. The Vernon vanish is a significantly different animal to the Crawford method. It is consistent with the idea of "retention", but it is not really like the Crawford vanish at all. He took a relatively unnatural pose and tranformed it to accomodate a more natural hand positioning and also cleverly dealt with the knuckle pop problem. For those unfamiliar with the lovely tale, Vernon never got to see TJ do the move because when he showed Crawford his work on the vanish, Crawford was so astounded by the efficacy of Vernon's illusion that refused to do it! These sorts of stories are testament to Vernon's greatness. In my humble opinion, if ever there was a man who was so deserving of zealous followers, then it was Vernon.
May your moral compass guide you true - South West is where the honourable man fare. Pity those who lose their way...
SOHA
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"A Coin Vanish" is Vernon's interpretation of CT Crawford's pass. He learned it from The Art of Magic (T. Nelsons Downs).

In Vernon Revelations volume 4, after his explanation of "The Coins and Champagne Glass", he gives a pretty interesting story about his pass.

He states that when he asked Crawford to demonstrate his pass to him, Crawford denied his request saying that not in his wildest dreams would have a good an illusion as Vernon.

He also tells the story about making it a game for his boys to guess if the coin was in his hand or not. They would basically bet their allowance to see if the coin was there.

To me, it sounds like Dai Vernon had a very good illusion IN HIS HANDS .

Will
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-10-24 20:13, Chris S wrote:
He may well have done is that way in one show that you saw, but ultimately all we have is the printed word to mark history. ...


For a few years more we have some of his peers and friends to ask.

You've mentioned his vanish twice without citation. Where would you suggest we look to find the thing in print?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
SOHA
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It would be interesting to hear from someone who saw Vernon in his prime do the vanish, (not in his later years), to see how good of an illusion it was.


Will
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