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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Hi,
I just had a gig and tried out my one coin routine and 3-fly for the first time on a non-friend audience and was generally disappointed with the reactions compared to my other magic. I used to mainly use a 4 coin production followed by an un-gimmicked coins across ending in their hand, which played very well, I think because the 4 coin production allowed me to pull coins from different spectators and build rapport, and then the coins across required a spectator's help, who could then elicit applause. I got some good reactions to the one coin routine if I had already done some other magic to them beforehand and the deck finale would then go down well, but I was planning to use it as an opener. So does anyone have any tips to make purely visual magic that doesn't inherently require an audience more engaging? Here's my one coin routine if that gives more context, although I made a few errors in filming and it is now smoother: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik9JHIdaui0 I cut down the patter when actually performing, and started with my sleeves rolled up already, so dropped the first vanish and the clean showing of the hands at the start. I struggle to display enthusiasm in youtube clips, but I'm more comfortable talking in real life. However, my problem may just be my routine, so feedback on that would also help. Thank you, David P.S. my gig was a student gig, so although it was paid, we were there to showcase our society's work to other students, so I felt it was ok to experiment with newer routines. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
You get less reaction to your visual magic because, IMHO, there is no such a thing as visual "magic": for the people it's just magical jugglery expressing your superiority. Who would have fun and being really entertained by looking like a fool or simply inferior in front of his friends or family (and some of our spectators are definitely not inferior)
When you did the coins to the spectator's hand, they were involved and because they knew that they had not done any sleight of hand, it was "magic". Another point is that when you do magic in the spectator's hand, you have to separate de real cause from the magical moment. Something that most one coin routines don't do. So if you want to start with your one coin routine, build a paradoxical story with the audience being the ethical protagonist, with a much smarter and much stronger antagonist (scientists, the State, Physics, time, society...) and create a conflict that each phase is illustrating with a diffferent effect, each time of a different nature (most one coin routines are just a repetition of transposition: boring after a while). Use change of nature (Spellbound), multiplication, destruction and reparation (karate coin), levitation or animation (IT)... (there is a list of effects in Dariel Fitzkee's Trick Brain). To suppress any challenge, told or implicit, take off every "I" and every "You" from your patter and replace them by "we". It's not sufficient but it's a major step. Alternate tense and relax moments... Then find metaphoric catchy phrases on the internet to express each phase (like "Just believe that the coins can teleport as in the future and your belief will help create the fact", "I will teach you something: how to lose money" -Tommy Wonder; for multiplication: "“Rich people have many friends and spending pile up: parties, yacht maintenance, family castle…” -Duraty....) Then find your body position to interact with the spectator (not facing a camera), find acting faces and voices for your story and script to have somme impact... Then you will have the beginning of a One coin routine and a good way to implant your act. Methink
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Immediately looking at my patter in this light, I can see how patronising it sounds. I've seen many people say that they use Roth's one coin routine and I wonder how they adapt it to performance because he is challenging David Letterman when he performs.
I had avoided a one coin routine up to this point due to those limitations, but I guess I felt it was kind of a rite of passage: to be able to perform magic with only a single coin. I am currently reading Strong Magic, but had wondered how much of it could apply to a one coin routine. This has really helped. I will be changing the patter completely on this now, and I will see where I can incorporate the use of "we" in my other acts. Could I ask you to elaborate on the body position statement? Are you recommending not to stand face on to the spectator? Thinking about this now, I realise that I don't for my 4 coin routine. Thank you very very much Lawrence O for your response - it has given me an awful lot to think about; as is the case with most of your posts on this forum! |
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Tree Loyal user Wiggle Wiggle 295 Posts |
Strong Magic IMHO is not a very good book. In fact it's what I would classify as "gag me with a spoon" relex.
Al Schneider's Book "Magic In Theory and Practice is 100x better. You actually will learn valuable lesson from Mr Schneider. |
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Tree:
I'm quite enjoying Strong Magic and it has already improved many of my other routines. Why do you feel it is not very good? I do of course plan to get Al Schneider's book in the future too, but I think it's best to go one book at a time for now. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
There is no doubt that Al Schneider's "Magic In Theory and Practic" and its complete rewriting in "Al Schneider Magic" published by L&L in 2011 is a treasure.
Now it doesn't deal at all with the same topics as Darwin Ortiz "Strong Magic" or "Designing Miracles" and both don't deal with the same topic as Gary Kurtz "Leading with your head" booklet or Maskelyne and Devant "Our Magic" or Derren Brown "Absolute Magic" and "Pure effect: Direct mind reading and magical artistry"... and this is without mentioning Henning Nelms Magic and Showmanship... Now, David, don't follow the lead of people that try to oppose authors, just for the sake of showing the extent of their knowledge. Tree is right in bringing up Al Schneider's writings which are major (even if his reference is not up to date) but he is wrong in his challenging of "Stong Magic". His magic might gain in writing "we" when referring to authors...! Work at gaining experience and tips from any master who is stating something that makes sense and finding the harmony and balance between all the subtle teachings that they shared with us. Remember that King Midas transformation of everything to gold was a punishment by Dyonisos and that, because he had been too stupid to understand the lessons of the gods, they did grant him with Donkey's ears that, instead or repenting, he exposed as a virtue... Now for your question on body positions: Slydini was underlining to all of his student (me included) that the arm movements are following the chest. Shoulders are better pointers than an arm extending from a static facing chest. Now Tony was performing sitting (with his body generally slightly oriented to the left). Arturo Ascanio, when thinking about the C&Bs, came out with the observation that for the standing magician, the position starts with the feet. Moving one foot slightly back for hte chest to rotate imperceptibly dragging the hands in the proper direction, placing the weight of the front leg or the back leg offers enormous misdirection and showmanship tools... and the beauty is that the audience is not aware of it.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Mb217 Inner circle 9519 Posts |
This is good talk.
First, welcome to the Café David. You have already gotten a great bit to chew on here as you see from both Mr. O and Tree. Two different perspectives but there's gold in both hills. I have read through many magic books, including the ones mentioned here as to my approach but find that experience is the best teacher. Unless you are lucky enough to have some of the teachers Mr. O mentions. I've never sat down with any of them but I have spent time with Mr. O. So maybe in a small way I have sat down with them too...sorta, or something like that. There's so much to consider in presentation, where you are and where you want to go as a magician dictates a lot of it. Most people are just hobbyists I would think, like most people at a baseball game are just fans. Only a few, those on the field mostly, are actual pros. Now, just because you're not a pro doesn't mean you can't use what the pros use in presenting your magic. A lot of it is simply understanding the human mind and how it assesses what it sees, what it encounters and must apply its logic to. Once you better understand that, you can develop in many ways that will make you effective. Greatest element in it all is time. It takes time to pull it all together and even more time to keep understanding how it works better and better, if that makes any sense. While there are some similiarities in performing on stage for hundreds and performing for just a few friends, the environment must be considered. I like to do magic for people I encounter wherever I go up close. In that, I like to step right into people's sphere of influence and engage, very conversationally...It works for me. I'm not a long, grand story patter kind of guy and like to get right into the magic with them. I did it just this morning in a diner right after breakfast for the owner and his brother. Both were in front of me sitting at the counter, one on each side. I usually would do a coin effect but I just did Twisting the Aces this time around and it played well, as even bus boys stopped to watch, along with others seated at the counter. I always learn from these encounters. Anyway, I find it interesting to simply step in and do magic for folks. I believe in all these books I've read now and again, that there are things that I have consciously and subconsciously thought about at times as to presentation on my own. It's like thinking over a good Coins Across, what works and how you want it to be done and why. Y'know, you keep re-thinking it, running it over & over in your mind and in actual practice, patter and everything. Within all that, I am thinking of everything, which way I'm facing, where do I go when I finish, etc. But most important in all of it is how I am leading their attention with the total package, not just the actual coin magic. I find that as you practice doing an effect, you find what works and what works better, but it is your lead in all of it that sets everything up for the responses you expect. Now, you gotta have the chops to pull everything off, no way around all that but you are preparing a scene, a moving picture even in walking the specs through all this, if this makes any sense but this is what I feel happening when I do magic, practice or for real. Anyway, I like your One Coin Routine, it flows pretty well and I like how you finish by going into the cards. The fine suggestions here will help it all along. In general, I would think a good Coins Across to specs hands would play better than 3 Fly, mostly because you better involve the audience and make them part of it. 3 Fly might come across better as a finish, after that card trick. Again, welcome to the Café.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Philip Busk Loyal user 229 Posts |
Great advice so far. I know you were performing for a camera which can be difficult but try to not always look at the camera. Same goes for an audience; don't always look them in the eye because you diminish your opportunity for misdirection. For example when you are placing the"coin" look at the spot intently. Try doing it with a real coin and shelf and you'll find that you look at the spot. That combined with then directing your eyes and possibly a question will not only direct your audiences attention but also draw them in to your performance. John Carney is a good read for such things.
Philip Busk
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
John is a good read for everything IMHO
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
Here is my two cents.
First, there is little visual magic. Magic occurs in the mind of the audience. They watch something, pull it into their head, and then review it. THEN, they make a decision if they are fooled or not. If you are condesending or arrogrant, they can easily make a decision they are not fooled. Here is a mistake many magicians make. Magicians often believe they decide if it is magic. In reality, it is the audience that decides if it is magic. You might be the best but a spectator can easily say, "He's just fast with his hands." While you may not agree with this thought, clearly the spectator has no interest in what you do. Here are some other sobering thoughts. Number One. Do not look at the audience when the magic happens. If you are good, the audience will see a miricle. They will be shocked. One of the things people worry about when they aer shocked is, "Is anyone watching them in this exposed condition." If you look at the audience, say when a coin is shown to be gone, you are looking at them at a very sensitive moment. Looking at them will shut down any raction that may have been spontaneous. The best time to look at the audience is the moment you do a move. Number Two. Keep your magic and motions located with one space. If the audience must move their eyes from spot to spot, much of their mental energy is spent just trying to catch up. That kind of motion also tends to make the props look small. In your video, the coin looked small. Get a video clip of someone like Jay Marshall doing magic. He is accustomed to performing on a large stage. But you will notice that his props look quite large. That is becasue he holds it still as he perfomrms. Number Three. Do not talk and then do magic. Some magicians talk for several minutes and then show a prop. I am not saying this is bad for it depends upon the theme of your act. If you are going magic, however, structure your magic so you are not communicating with your voice but communicating with your magic. There is a subtle difference. In the clip I saw at the beginning of this thread, you did well with cordinating your speaking with the motion of you hands. That was good. All the best. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Lawrence:
Looks like I'm going to be getting a bigger book shelf and an emptier wallet! Those books are all on my list for the future and do not worry, I was not being swayed by his opinion, only curious as to what grounds it was formed on. I've been reading through Strong Magic and creating a set of notes to go with it as there's so much valuable information in there! The only complaint I can find with it is that for a while I felt like an incredibly inadequate magician! That is misdirection at a deep level! I think I need to read that from the source to fully understand the complexities of that - which means yet another book for the shelf! Mb: Since I'm doing paid gigs, I try to treat it as professionally as possible, and I would like it as a part-time job in the future, so I am trying to pick up as much advice from the pros as I can. I definitely appreciate the comment on time as my coins across has been altered a lot over the past 6 months and keeps on improving with each performance. I too love those moments of performing to strangers during a regular day. I've had many impromptu performances from practising downs palm at the bus stop and usually leads into a great conversation afterwards. I also performed 3fly for some jugglers as my demonstration of "invisible juggling", which they particularly enjoyed Philip: Yeah, I can't believe I didn't notice that! I was videoing on a webcam, so I could see myself on screen and fell into the trap of performing for a mirror! So I just put together a little routine to practise actively using my eyes more for misdirection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUCCjsXJYWk&feature=youtu.be Ignoring my terribly cramped hand (I'm used to coins not tomatoes atm!), this felt a lot better, so I'll try to work more on my eyes in all my routines. Thank you for all of your contributions |
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
Al: That's more than two cents worth!
I only recently began performing 3fly to audiences and my patter was an "explanation" of how the hand is quicker than the eye and was meant to be slightly tongue in cheek, however it backfired as a lot of people actually believed it and then felt disappointed that my other coin magic must have also been the same! So they decided none of it was magic. So I definitely understand what you mean here. Number 3 I had considered when coming up with the patter (although I had not viewed it as communicating with magic as such), number 2 I have heard before, but not considered it for close up, so I'll definitely restructure this. Number 1 I did naturally for some effects like cut and restored rope, as I wanted them to really get a good look at the finished result. However, I have not heard this reason mentioned anywhere before, which I find quite shocking really, as this makes perfect sense and I hadn't considered it! Thank you so much for this advice. David |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
You may find it interesting where I discovered number one. It was at a magic shop. I found that when you did a trick for a customer and then asked them to buy it, they rareley bought it. Then, through trial and error I discovered this. I would remove a trick from its box and place the box behind me. Then, I would do the trick. Upon its completion, I immediately turned to look for the box. I did not observe the reaction to the trick. Often I had to fumble to find the box. This allowed the customer to be alone with their thoughts. That gave them time to think about it. Then, I would find the box, turn, put the box on the counter, and tell them the price. More often than not, they would say, "I'll take it." This carried over to the magic I was performing. During my active time developing magic, I would set up close up shows with a number of other performers. Many times I would have people that attended these events tell me that they appreciated the comfortable feeling I projected when doing magic.
Well Keep on working at it. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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motown Inner circle Atlanta by way of Detroit 6127 Posts |
Quote: Of course there's visual magic and it isn't simple as magic you've defined as magical jugglery. Try putting yourself in the spectators shoes, they don't see all magic the same way any more then they see movies the same way.On 2013-06-09 13:55, Lawrence O wrote:
"If you ever write anything about me after I'm gone, I will come back and haunt you."
– Karl Germain |
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OliveroG Regular user 167 Posts |
Quote:
Of course there's visual magic and it isn't simple as magic you've defined as magical jugglery. Try putting yourself in the spectators shoes, they don't see all magic the same way any more then they see movies the same way. Could you atleast try to elaborate more on your thoughts? Since this conversation has been a good give and take of opinions, it would be nice if you share yours with us, instead of just saying "You're wrong" to somebody else.
I hope you understand, my dear friend, that everything you are seeing is a lie, but everything you are feeling holds true.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
From a slightly different perspective, "magic in the mind" does not occur unless there is an expectation that magic is about to occur. This "expectation" might come form knowing you are a magician, a previous effect, a story line or spectator statement. You then change the Expectation to Anticipation by "visual stuff" and "verbal cues" that is sometimes called Visual Magic. Then when the shock/surprise comes and they go into Al's mental camp to sort it out "magic" is a suitable explanation. Each spectator should "see magic the same" because you have set the stage for that to occur. Most of the "visual" stuff is to have their attention focused away at the moment of the "move" and their 'anticipation" focused at the moment of the "magic."
I believe Al once said (paraphrasing), "Our job is astonishment. Whether or not is is magic is up to the spectator." I can attest from tens of thousands of performances in which it was not known I was a magician and there was no "Expectation of Magic" that the result is for the observer of the "visual stuff" is a challenging of what they consider to be impossible. They might later apply the term "magic" based on prior experience but the immediate reaction to the "surprise" is "maybe what I think is impossible ain't so." Since that was my objective in a consultancy environment -- it works. When you wish to entertain or have "magic be the message" then you must make magic the immediate reaction to what is observed. Remember the Lincoln quote that goes something like, "if I had ten hours to chop down a tree I would spend nine hours sharpening my axe." Most of what you should be doing during a performance is creating a setting in which magic might occur. The use of visual and verbal components may serve to that end, or only create confusion as to your intent. Coins are not inherently magical and neither are we as a performer. The spectator's mind is inherently magical in the way that it balances Anticipation and Surprise. As to the title question: "engage" 52%, "magic" 38% and "visual fluff" at best 10% of the impact Or so it seems at 3AM in Tennessee
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Curtis Kam V.I.P. same as you, plus 3 and enough to make 3498 Posts |
There's a lot to think about here, and you're going to have to choose. That's okay, that's pretty much how you start to define yourself as a performer.
Let me throw this into the mix--about your script. You're trying to do what you call "visual magic". If you're really doing it, then you really shouldn't have to explain your every motion. They can see your visual magic, right? Also, it's not really all that important that they understand what a "sneaky coin" is, so speaking as a teacher isn't necessary. I'd suggest showing more and telling less. For instance, instead of saying "I need an invisible coin which is up in the air, over here" you could just say, "Of course, I need a coin, like this one." They can see that you're pulling it from the air, and they can "see" that it's invisible. You might continue, "Some of you might not be able to see it. It's sneaky. (said with a shrug, or an implied "duh") "Wait. Get Real!" (and it appears.) "sometimes it takes a firm hand." Then, instead of showing them exactly what a sneaky coin is, perhaps your script should focus on how you feel about such things. That would lead into your ending about how hard it is to get rid of them. You know, if there really were such things as "sneaky coins" then how would you react? This reveals your character, and gives them a way to react to the magic, and more importantly, to you. It also connects with the audience who have had to deal with annoying friends, children, or mobile phones. Finally, once you've decided to present an illusion, stay consistent with it. At one point in your first clip, you make the coin invisible, but you claim it's still there. Why, then, do you show your hand empty by turning it palm down? The invisible coin would fall to the floor. I'm not saying that you're going to convince anyone that there's really an invisible coin there, but if you don't stay true to the illusion, you could convince them that you're just wasting their time. Or that you don't really mean for them to listen to what you're saying. If you've "told" them that, then it's no wonder that they're not engaged in what you're doing. On the good side, I think your timing and the moves look pretty good. It's difficult to use the Downs palm without falling into the trap that Lawrence mentioned earlier. That has to be blocked carefully, or it's just hard to watch. Too many people try to use that move and end up flailing all over the place. Oh, and you're asking good questions, IMHO. That's really the hardest part.
Is THAT a PALMS OF STEEL 5 Banner I see? YARRRRGH! Please visit The Magic Bakery
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts |
So much great information in the above responses! I've bookmarked this for future reference. I hope other beginner magicians are reading this too!
I've focused on just a few things for now. I just filmed a clip of my new idea for it. I have exams coming up, so this was a bit rushed, but wanted to get feedback while this thread is still going strong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rttiV5wExuk&feature=youtu.be I'm hoping it will come across as fun and engaging to the audience as it gets them involved and also gives me lots of opportunity to use their names. I guess it slightly "makes fools of them", but in a much more light hearted way and I aim to be almost unaware of the magic. It is also less contrived and the actions of passing from one hand to the other makes sense, although I need to consider different spectator positions first. In reality I would perform it a lot slower and allow natural conversation amongst the magic. I still need to work on making sure the spectator views it as magical, but at least it is hopefully now more entertaining. I'm also breaking the rule of keeping the magic in one place, although its not as bad as my downs palm. I realised that my one coin routine consisted mainly of sleights that I love but don't fit into my other routines, so I'm stripping it don to what is necessary. |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
Mr. Curtis Kam:
Sir,I believe your words are gold. I, personally, tend not to care about the words. I simply believe that saying something is absolutely necessary. However, when I review some of my stuff, the script is so solid it stuns me. For example, in my Zombie ball routine, the sequence is coreagraphed like a dance. I show the ball and claim it is an experiment. As I continue the routine the ball rebels. I attempt to regain control and its rebelling is stronger. Finally, I need to clamp down on it and putit away. I think this is the result of performing the trick and a concern for the welfare of the audience. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
I find in this thread many important points
Here you have seasoned magicians like Curtis Kam, Al Schneider Marion Boykin, Funsway generously supplying advice in this Café spirit "magicians helping magicians". Even though each one has a different angle, instead of opposing their views, they contribute and some common points emerge from the different syles or approachs to magic. I find here a confirmation that rather than looking for what differentiate authors, it is more important for us to see what they share in common for this tells what the roots of magic are. "Magic occurs in the mind of the audience" (Al Schneider). Differences aren't what makes an author better or worse, they express their difference in style. The quality of a book or video stems from the fact that's what is fundamental about magic (how the audience's perception of the offered magic) is addressed. I would underlinne a common point which is very explicitly present in most of Al Schneider's writings. The patter helps chiseling what the efffect is. Allow me to illustrate this with a non passionate example. In the C&Bs, around the end, most magicians do the Multiplication Pass (which allows them to get to their pockets for secretly collecting large loads). For most magicians, including The Professor, the effect is that the balls "come back" under the cup. Yet Laurie L Ireland's patter, using the exact same moves, claims that the cups are continuously "producing balls". What both Al Schneider and Curtis Kam underline here is that the patter should not be descriptive of what is seen (stating the obvious) but converge to about what the magician wants the effect to be perceived as. In a one coin routine, it's not the same thing to express that the coin "becomes invisible" than saying that it "vanishes" or that it "travelled". As Curtis underlines if it becomes invisible, it is here and the following gesture should aim at implicitly confirm it without stealing the show: the flashing of the ends empty should not require the same amplitude of attention than the effect. If the coin disappears or vanishes, it could be anywhere and then the showing of the hands or the sleeve, or the opening of the jacket become justified. If it magically travThe visual aspect isn't sufficient, patter supplies the interpretation. From Al Schneider's description of his magic shop experience, I find confirmation that applause cues satisfy the anxiety of the performer more than serving the magic. In turn, seeking for applauses (even when not chepaly done) breaks the impact of magic and as such reduces the global appreciation about the performer's act and the performer himself. Now I have a question for Al Schneider. Al underlines: "Do not look at the audience when the magic happens. If you are good, the audience will see a miracle." I infer from this that Al suggest us to look at where the magic happens. I have an inner conflict about this for Tony Slydini taught me exactly the opposite expressing that for the magic to happen in the spectators' minds, I should look at the audience when revealing the effect. As a matter of fact, if you look on Youtube the performance of Tony's one coin routine, you see that when the coin reappears under his elbow, he is looking at the audience. My natural slope is still driving me towards Al Schneider's statement but Tony didn't have a small personality and I followed his advice against my natural slope. From Al's statement, I'm reconsidering what I'm currently doing asking myself if Tony's statement didn't stem from the fact that his misdirection was deeply challenging. Could it be that looking at the effect when revealing it is a focus at the magic when looking at the audience at that moment is challenging them for the next effect. Can the various masters here express their points of view with the underlying purposes?
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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