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General_Magician
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A buddy of mine recommended I read a book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" so I have started reading it. In the beginning of the book it talks about a game called Cashflow where the object is to get out of the "rat race" and onto the "fast track." I am personally very skeptical of any sort of "fast track" though I am a firm believer in "work smarter not harder." I am not so sure there is such a thing as a "fast track" when it comes to money. I figured I would read the book any way and I do enjoy gaming (such as board games for example). Anybody ever read this book? Anybody think this is indeed a good book which honestly offers any real world insights into becoming more successful with money (and when I say successful, I am obviously talking about honest, legitimate money)?
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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I have not read the book, but I am familiar with it. The author (Kiyosaki) mentored a real estate flipper failure dude some years ago, and I was amused reading about how he was coaching that guy.

There used to be a really great site that dissected the claims in the book, and demonstrated how there were some grave errors contained therein. I wish I could find it again, but I forget where it was. This isn't the site I am thinking of, but it makes for good reading:

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Be sure to read about the 20/20 special on Kiyosaki.

Also, see this article "Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Bankrupt Dad?":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/helaineolen/......upt-dad/

Personally, I would recommend this book instead:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wealthy-Barber......1513116/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
General_Magician
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Yeah, I read some reviews on the book and the reviews stated that he advocates using debt as "leverage." That right there set off alarm bells for me as I am very much against going into debt and personally, I think it's best to stay debt free, live within your means, save and invest those savings wisely and conservatively (with the goal of wealth preservation). I don't know of any "fast track" when it comes to wealth building and preservation.

I am sure you have some people who win the lottery and then just **** the money away and some people like sports stars can make millions but many of them too **** the money away. Building wealth and then keeping wealth in most cases is tough and hard to do. It takes discipline, hard work, staying out of debt, saving, budgeting, investing conservatively and living within your means. Most of the "Joneses" (my spelling is terrible) are broke too, so trying to keep up with them would probably make you broke right along with most of them. What is your take on this guru Dave Ramsey? I was thinking about getting one of his books to read some of his ideas. You think his books are worth reading?

PS- I had to laugh when I read the game "Cashflow" had a "fast track" and the goal of the game is to get out of the "rat race." Well before you get out of the rat race and onto the "fast track" it's best to consider if a "fast track" really even honestly exists in the first place. Sounds too good to be true to me. That "fast track" is most likely just a "fast track" into debt and bankruptcy rather than wealth and financial independence.
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On 2013-06-11 23:27, General_Magician wrote:

Yeah, I read some reviews on the book and the reviews stated that he advocates using debt as "leverage." That right there set off alarm bells for me as I am very much against going into debt ...

I'm not opposed to going into debt and using debt as leverage. By which I mean, borrowing money at a low rate (e.g. against your home) to invest in a fairly secure private placement at a higher rate. But of course it is not always easy to do, and it helps a lot if you know the right people. A friend of mine is involved with one company that has completed 20 different projects over 19 years, each one has done well, and they've averaged a return of 32% (non-compounded) a year. I have no problem borrowing money to invest in projects through that company. So it can be done. But finding out about these investment opportunities, I think, depends a lot on luck and who you know. That's simply not something Kiyosaki can teach / deliver to his readers.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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I'm not opposed to going into debt and using debt as leverage. By which I mean, borrowing money at a low rate (e.g. against your home) to invest in a fairly secure private placement at a higher rate. But of course it is not always easy to do, and it helps a lot if you know the right people. A friend of mine is involved with one company that has completed 20 different projects over 19 years, each one has done well, and they've averaged a return of 32% (non-compounded) a year. I have no problem borrowing money to invest in projects through that company. So it can be done. But finding out about these investment opportunities, I think, depends a lot on luck and who you know. That's simply not something Kiyosaki can teach / deliver to his readers.


I looked up the book you recommended and bookmarked it. Buddy of mine let me borrow his "Rich Dad Poor Dad" book but I have strong doubts about it. I'll read the book anyway to see if there is anything I think is worth trying in the real world, but I am skeptical of his book. Your recommendation though looks pretty interesting after reading a description of the book. What about this Dave Ramsey guy? You know anything about him?
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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balducci
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"Dave Ramsey"? ... no, does not ring a bell.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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From what I heard, the Rich Dad, Poor Dad guy actually recommends using techniques such as insider trading, which is flat out illegal and will get you sent to prison. Anyway, I've got no desire to be rich if it means selling my soul.
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General_Magician
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On 2013-06-12 00:34, EsnRedshirt wrote:
From what I heard, the Rich Dad, Poor Dad guy actually recommends using techniques such as insider trading, which is flat out illegal and will get you sent to prison. Anyway, I've got no desire to be rich if it means selling my soul.


I agree. I wasn't aware that the book recommends insider trading. Me, the books that I have read and certainly recommend to anybody is "The Intelligent Investor" by Benjamin Graham. Benjamin Graham taught investor Warren Buffet. His style of investment is very conservative and focuses on wealth preservation when investing. Benjamin Graham wrote his books "Security Analysis" and "The Intelligent Investor" during the Great Depression. Very sound and wise advice from somebody who survived some of the toughest economic times in American history. Warren Buffet was a student of Benjamin Graham when he taught business school and investing. He took what he learned from Benjamin and became one of richest billionaires in the world. Benjamin Graham's books certainly do not recommend insider trading and none of his advice entails "selling your soul" to become rich.

I have read "The Intelligent Investor" from cover to cover and "Security Analysis" is a very thick book which goes deep into analyzing individual stocks to determine if they selling at a bargain price. You see, the Great Depression taught by putting many into poverty that the best way to create wealth is to look for bargains and buy bargains and value for your money. It was the hardships of poverty that taught many the secrets of wealth creation and bargain hunting was one of those "secrets." You have to bargain hunt when you are poor and don't have much money. It's the same when buying individual stocks, you look for bargains. Now me, I don't buy individual stock because I don't have the time to analyze in depth individual stocks like a Benjamin Graham or a Warren Buffet, so I prefer to invest in index mutual funds and dollar cost average with those specific type funds.
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Buffet, it should be pointed out, advocates going into debt to buy a house.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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Buffet, it should be pointed out, advocates going into debt to buy a house.


I really hate the notion of debt. I respect Warren Buffet though. One day I would like to own a home, but I want to be sure I am not putting myself in a position to get screwed by the banks. I don't trust the banks. The financial system and banks really ruined it's reputation and integrity when they in turn were bailed out by the taxpayers after the housing market meltdown. There was no excuse for banks being allowed to give out loans to people they knew couldn't pay them back. It was pure and simple, predatory lending practices and even those with good credit and fixed rate mortgage loans ended up paying. Which that brings into question, the basic integrity and trustworthiness of the financial system. What about those who lost their homes? What about those who have bad credit now? Why should the banks be bailed out by taxpayers and why should they now be trusted again after what happened? Where is the basic integrity of the financial system now?

After what happened it seemed to have proved the notion that by going into debt, all you are doing is putting yourself and your credit at the mercy of a financial system that has questionable integrity. Why would I want to risk my credit and good name by putting myself into debt with banks and a financial system with questionable integrity? Money and debt is very serious business. I have good credit and I keep myself out of debt (which if I keep going with never using debt, I will probably have no credit after awhile), but I honestly question the integrity of the financial system and the banks after what happened with the housing market meltdown. Why should I put myself and my credit at risk with crooked bankers by going into debt to them? Even mortgage loans have risk and are serious. The banks were just allowed to do whatever they wanted to do and after being irresponsible, they were given a free pass with a taxpayer bailout. Where is the integrity in that? Why should I trust them? I imagine people probably asked those same questions during the Great Depression too as I am sure they viewed the banks as crooked as well back then.
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General_Magician
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Now here is an article about a college student who managed to avoid student loan debt. He took out student loan debt and paid it back, but it was very tough. So, the second time he went to school, to avoid taking out student loans, he bought a van for a little over a grand and then turned it into a home. He kept it a secret for a long time and Duke University was not happy about it once they found out.

What does Duke expect though? College is expensive and keeps rising in price and you can't declare bankruptcy on student loans like you can with mortgage or any other kind of loan. In all honesty, seemed like the only way to keep himself debt free while going to college if he wasn't able to use the GI Bill like some of the prior service guys are able to use: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/duke-grad-......l?page=1 .

He learned like I did (and probably many others of my generation learned as well) that debt is slavery and it's best to avoid debt at all costs. The banks are not your friend and you certainly are not going to get ahead by letting the banks prey on you and turn you into their slave by going into debt to them or by gambling your good name and credit by taking out a loan with them (especially when you consider the obviously questionable basic integrity of the banks and the financial system). Student loan debt is definitely something to be avoided at all costs, especially considering you can't declare bankruptcy on those loans. And, it looks like he did a lot of bargain shopping while he lived out of his van and attended Duke. Buying bargains, especially when investing, is probably one of the best way to help build wealth in addition to investing in yourself (such as getting a college education).

I imagine if more people started finding ways to avoid debt the banks would buy off a few politicians in Congress to get them to pass laws that would could somehow directly or indirectly get people into debt. They certainly wouldn't like a guy like the one in this article because they can't make money off of him because he won't take out any loans.
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I wouldn't have been able to go to law school without student loans. It was a great investment for me, which I certainly wouldn't trade.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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On 2013-06-12 04:09, General_Magician wrote:

Now here is an article about a college student who managed to avoid student loan debt.

Says the student, who lived in a van for something like 3 years, eating noodles every day, taking his showers in a gym, with no money for any entertainment etc.: "I think of [student debt] like a ball and chain — something that's keeping you from living a full life."

:)

The article leaves out a lot of information, but from what it said I think the fellow might have been smart to worry less about debt and to have put more thought into the selection of his fields of study which appear to have been (according to the article) "the least marketable fields of study possible — English and History".
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"it's best to avoid debt at all costs."

that is not really true. It depends on your circumstances. When I was starting my business, I borrowed $100k from the equity of my house in order to fund it.

Wealth always involves some sort of risk and going into debt.

"marketable fields of study possible — English and History"

Many people who study both English and History go on to become lawyers, entrepreneurs, and heads of venture funds. One of the wealthiest guys I know was an English major before starting his own hedge fund.
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I have no debts except my mortgage. Homes are expensive, and nearly impossible for most of us to buy with cash up front. Hence the mortgage. However, it is an exception in that the mortgage is an investment (provided you can make payments on time.) Cars lose value the moment they're driven off the lot. Stocks are volatile. Real estate, for the most part, holds value or increases in value (recent market bubbles notwithstanding) and the property and mortgage can be resold.
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On 2013-06-12 12:37, Slide wrote:

"marketable fields of study possible — English and History"

Many people who study both English and History go on to become lawyers, entrepreneurs, and heads of venture funds. One of the wealthiest guys I know was an English major before starting his own hedge fund.

Not all (I think not even most) lawyers are well off, and I think very, very few entrepreneurs succeed without going into debt somewhere along the way (i.e. so the student in question is probably not going to go that route).

Your hedge fund guy is a nice exception (btw how long ago did your guy start his own hedge fund) and I know of similar anecdotal examples of English and History majors who made good myself. But I think it does not really change anything. Certainly the vast majority of English and History majors I know of are either unemployed or significantly underemployed.

Although I do think people should study what they like, if avoiding debt is one's overriding concern (as apparently it was for the student in question), then there are far better fields of study / career options available than English and History.
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What about this Dave Ramsey guy? You know anything about him?

Dave Ramsey is a weekday afternoon talk radio host and money/real estate guy who gives investment advice. He generally advocates paying off all your debt in a series of organized steps and becoming totally debt free, including your mortgage and vehicles.
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Although I do think people should study what they like, if avoiding debt is one's overriding concern (as apparently it was for the student in question), then there are far better fields of study / career options available than English and History.


But the question is, would he enjoy those career options that pay well? I can speak from experience that if you don't enjoy the career path you have chosen despite the fact that it pays well, then you won't have your heart in it and you probably won't live up to your full potential. It can be pretty miserable stuck in a career path that pays well but you hate. Besides, life is too short to be selling your happiness and soul just to make decent money. Money is important towards happiness, but not if it requires you to be stuck in a job that you hate or causes you to flush your happiness or soul down the drain.

When you have your heart in something, you tend to do better at it, even if that career field doesn't pay well when you first get out of college. I used to be a programmer and I have a computer science degree and I managed to graduate college debt free, but after being in the programming industry for a few years, I wasn't too happy. I enjoy programming to a certain degree but not as a career path. I am not an introvert like most programmers and I am more of a social person. Making a high salary at a job you hate is not something I would advocate.

I would encourage people to figure out what they love to do and follow that path maybe even starting your own business in it to make money doing what you love to do. You can take anything and turn it into a business. You'll be much happier and you will probably do that career much better than a career that pays well but you hate to do. But, if you have to go to college to do the career path you want and would love to do (and have your heart in it), I would say do everything you can to graduate college debt free. The interest on that student loan debt can stack up pretty quick and leave you drowning in seemingly inescapable debt. But the banks and financial companies will be happy to make you their indentured servant and make money off of you by keeping you that way the rest of your life.
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Slide
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"Certainly the vast majority of English and History majors I know of are either unemployed or significantly underemployed. "

Well, I was a theater major. I really don't think it matters much what you get for your undergraduate degree. I'm a big believe in a strong liberal arts background as an undergraduate. Graduate school is where you specialize.

Many people believe that unless you get into one of the very top schools, it really doesn't matter where you go to college, what you majored in. A lot of english majors go into marketing and advertising where verbal skills and a wide general knowledge are a plus.
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BTW, here are some famous history majors: http://cas.bethel.edu/dept/history/famous_majors
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