Slydini said that a Take was more deceptive than a put. I tend to agree. The best looking coin vanishes are a WELL done french drop, and a retention vanish. Some like the classic palm vanish are good but differ because the spectator doesn't actually see the coin being taken or put into the hand it is just assumed.

You should vary your methods I think, especially in a one coin routine or something where there is potential to do the same vanish over and over, they may catch on.

Chicken or egg?

Yes, this is indeed an interesting question. If I remember correctly, I believe Al Schneider said a Put is more natural; you'd have to ask him. I believe there was talk about this in the NYCMS DVD Set; particularly Mike Gallo comments. Maybe check with Mike Rubinstein on this; and the good doctor would most likely have his own opinion on this.

For years I studied how lay people transfer objects for one hand to the other and a Take wins by about 80/20

So, if you wish to transfer a coin from right to left, for example, and the move is not part of an immediate Effect a Take would appear more natural.

However, establishing a Pattern of Performance may support having all moves be the same whether they are tricky or not. Thus, the answer should not depend on "deceptive" but on congruency.

I agree with the reasons stated by Tony Slydini and other respected members of our community: The Take is more deceptive.

There are many reasons why this is so, but Lawrence O has written them down far better than I ever could. See his post in this thread; it's the 10th post down on the first page:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=37

Jim

That was a treatsie! Thanks for finding that! I would agree with all the theory, but for me the routine I do dictates whether I do a put or a take. I often do both within the context of the same routine. Here's one to think about. . When is a take not a take? When its a steal.....

Re Gr8gorilla's remarks--I always considered a retention vanish as a PUT. Is that incorrect?

Why are you moving the coin?

Mikey silver does this the best whatch this master coin worker and learn..
vinny

My friend Sol Stone clearly favors the “take” rather than the “put” (See Sol’s new book “The Essential Sol Stone” page 49.)

But, I believe that, like everything else in magic – “it depends”.

I have been a Slydini student for many years and while I do very few (if any) of Slydini’s effects I learned much from him about his principles – and, as much of my magic is done during dinner I do lapping.

Now let’s suppose at dinner there is a salt shaker to my right. I have a coin in my right hand and I “put” it into my left hand and then my right hand goes in sort of a “U” from my left hand, over my lap (dropping the coin) , and to the salt shaker which I pick up and sprinkle salt on my left hand and then show the coin vanished.

I showed this to Sol and he agreed it was OK.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry about which is more natural.

First of all, naturalness isn't the "magical cloak of invisibility" some people claim it is. It's a tool, and just like any other tool, sometimes it's the right tool, sometimes it's not.

Secondly, naturalness depends on context. Gestures you use out on the street might be out of place in church. At different moments, for different purposes, Slydini's one coin routine uses both puts and takes. (at least, as written in "Slydini Encores")

Third, if you want to compare categories of false transfers, as an academic exercise, be sure you've got the whole field. To "puts" and "takes", you can add "tosses" and "drops", and what do you call a fingertip retention, where the hands approach each other and meet in the middle? That last one is one hand "putting" and the other hand "taking". Add to that the fact that a TJ Crawford style retention, a.k.a. "a retention vanish", can be made to look like a "take" simply by moving the receiving hand.

Finally, if you're in church and the collection plate comes around, "put", don't "take".

As usual Curtis Kam hit the nail on the head. I sometimes put. I sometimes take. I sometimes do neither. Both hands move. The best two answers is that, "It depends," or "Does it fit the script?" In a sense what is most deceptive doesn't matter. If a move looks real good and the audience realizes that it looks real good, you have failed. If the audience thinks you transfered a coin from hand to hand and are waiting for you to do something with the coin in the receiving hand, you won. Most retention vanishes I have seen look awesome and so does the audience. That means you are losing. Some skilled perfomers script the rotuine so a retention vanish looks awesome and the audience waits to see what is going to happen with the coin after the coin was transfered. That's a win. So, "It depends."

I think all of this is about too much philosophy. The purpose of philosopy is to win debates, not build bridges.

Al Schneider

You have a coin in your hand. You could just close your fingers around the coin. What compels you to do otherwise?

Curtis
I just looked at your bio.
What do you mean when you say real magic?
In the context of this thread does this mean you really make a coin disappear?
Al Schneider

Al,

Since the reference to "Real Magic" was listed in my "interests", I have to say, yes, in the context of this thread, I'm interested in really making a coin disappear. However, since they still won't give me a license for my backpack particle accelerator, I'm also interested in things that just look like "real magic".

Some days, it takes a miracle just to do the impossible.

Curtis

Yea I have always Said " If it where really Magic How would it look! And then Try to get as Close as Possible ! "

Also as Curtis has said in the past! " The fake Placement of the coin into the hand Is only The beginning Of the vanish! "

Well, I have a thought, question, or something. Not sure what I even want to say.
We do magic.
Have you ever seen something that looks like real magic.
This is complex so I do not know how to explain it.
Many people here do magic and fool people.
That is, the observer cannot explain how it was done.
Still not sure how to say this.
Let's try this.
Some amazing things are done here.
Things that I cannot explain.
However, I can easily duplicate them.
I am fooled by some of this stuff, but I don't care.
I care when the presentation is good and applies good theater. I can enjoy that.
But a lot of these things are kids that are doing it for other kids on Youtube.
They are good but still, I can easily duplicate it.
Someone does a great vanish. Well, it kind of looks cheap because the hand contorts to press the coin in CP.
Obviously a set up for a Muscle Pass. You can see where that is executed.
Now, becasue this person has no idea how to cover the CP and the pass, he is using a major gimmick to ditch the coin.
Yes, it looks very good. But does it look like magic?
I do not think so.
Yes, we are fooled. But does it look like real magic?
No, because we recognize part of what is happening.
We do not recognize some other part of it.

I have spent a long time attempting to figure out how to do what seems as real magic.
I have discovered a method. That is what "The Theory and Practice of Magic Deception" is about.
It is not easy.
I am curious if anyone else focuses on this.
Most attempt to develop a move that others do not recognize and hence "fool us."

I have a method. Do others have a method?
Can you show it?
Can you discuss it?
I tire of watching videos of things people put up to fool us.
Ok, its cute. Curtis, what about real magic?
Where is it?

I realize that most magic is theater and its goal is to entertain.
Pros are best at this.
Another goal of some is to one up everyone else so the guy gets credit for, "I got you."
My interest is in finding a way to go beyond, "gotcha."
Can we go beyond "Gosh that guy is good," to a heart pounding gut wretching feeling magic has been seen?

Curtis, what to you think?


Al Schneider

Believe it or not, Al, recently, on a vacation to Florida, I saw some magic happen with
a simple French drop, practiced thousands of times. Seriously, some people just flipped out at a restaurant.
It was REAL MAGIC to them. I am not the type who carries 50 trix in my wallet, so often I have to make something happen.

I think Slydini is onto something. His ghost says--it's in the take THE TAKE. I am not bragging about myself, but rather,
how we forget how MASTERY of a great move you can do in your sleep, and then act the rest out without thinking of it, as
if REAL MAGIC HAPPENED, PERHAPS THAT, is real magic.

Hay Al,
Now if I knew What real Magic was I would not be looking for It !

And Whether you do a put or a take or a little of both You have to believe In it yourself! Because If you don't think the coin is in your hand, How can the people who are watching you believe in it's there ???

Vampiro
You are agreeing with me.
One of my students did some restrauant work. He does not understand why so many magicians try to come up with great stuff. He said he would walk up to a table and do a coin vanish and they would go gaga. It was a hard core put type of vanish. He said they acted as if they saw a miracle. You have made this point and my student has made this point. Then, why are so many on this forum going gaga over some guy contorting his hand, doing a funny squeeze motion, then showing his hand empty. The French Drop has none of this. From a perspective, there are no moves to it. By the way, if you do the French Drop moving the receieving hand it is a take. If you move the holding hand, it is a put. Anyway, your point about it being real magic to innocent laymen is very accurate. I was once at a party doing some magic for few people. A lady heard about it and said she would like to see something. I rolled up a napkin that was on the table and made it disappear with a basic false transfer. Her eyes got wide, she was stunned, she stood up, and walked away looking fearful.

I am still not sure what I am trying to say here. Perhaps I am trying capture something from an earlier experience. I speak of this often in my books. I did some magic for classmates in one of my physics classes in college. I did a trick where I pretended to pick up a penny but did not pick it up. I pretended to hold it in my hand and pretended to put it into my hand. Then I opened my hand to show the penny gone. Now, most of you can do this. But in this situaton something wierd happened. One fellow student claimed he saw the penny lying on my hand and saw heads. The other guy said he clearly saw the penny lying on my hand but was tails side up. When they talked about this, they looked at each other as if the other were crazy. Understand, there was no penny near my hand. It was two feet away in plain view. This suggests to me there is more to just doing a move. To these guys that penny was real and it just vanished. It happened in their mind. I want to unlock that power and make real magic happen.

Al Schneider

Mr Schneider, most here on the Café can't comprehend what you are trying to convey.
IMO it's due to limitations they have because of THEIR belief of what they think on how magic should
be performed.
It's only recently I have started to question the practice of Magic because of you awesome book Theory and Practice.
I'm on my 3rd read as I write this now, and you keep me thinking.