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Steff New user 35 Posts 
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We often « oppose » books and DVDs, as we sometime “oppose” news from TV, internet or paper media.
It’s always interesting to try and analyse differences between these channels... but in the end, to keep well informed I watch TV, for fresh news, internet, because it is a good place for debate, and newspapers and magazine for deeper analysis. That’s my point here. When I started to work on faros (for instance), I gathered several sources. Each media can bring you something useful. At the question “either... or...”, I answer “both”. Yet, there is still a subject. What each medium is best for ? What are the potential “dangers” of such or such medium ? |
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J.Warrens Inner circle Canada 1098 Posts
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Vlad,
That may have partially been my fault; I mentioned in my post earlier that I didn't see much point to this thread. It's all subjective. Same with threads that inquire about which version of trick X is "best". |
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duanebarry Special user 883 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-06-18 11:36, J.Warrens wrote: These threads can become useful when writers go beyond their simple answer of WHICH and undertake explorations of WHY. |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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As an instructor myself AND a teacher of teachers I find two relevant things regarding this Topic:
1) Teachers teach differently than other teachers. 2) Students learn differently than other students. To simplify, some learn more effectively through aural means. Some through visual means. (Yes, I'm aware of other means, but want to keep this simple). My own experience with learning Magic began with BOOKS because videotapes and DVDs DID NOT EXIST. It was also EXTREMELY RARE to see a magician's performance. Even then, if I had been studying an Egg Bag routine at that time, I'd have to be *** lucky to see THAT magician at THAT time doing THAT routine! With books, you are engaged with details and involve your IMAGINATION to engage your mind's eye to "see" the handling. This is verified with a few photos or illustrations. But there is always a twinge of uncertainty wondering whether one is doing things "right". And, as we all know, books can have mistakes. To me, videotapes and DVDs were a Godsend! I could actually view a magician's performance. Body language. Patter. Detailed handling of sleights! An amazing tool for learning. EVEN IF a good magician is a poor teacher, you can learn through his presentation. Both books and DVDs are GOOD. I still believe a Combo Set of a book plus DVD would be an effective way to go. This has been done a few times and I find it very helpful.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13421 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-06-18 11:10, Carlo wrote: LOL
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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videoman Inner circle 6217 Posts
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I can watch a magic instructional DVD while working out, find it hard to do that with a book.
That gives me a good overview and helps me decide which effects or sleights I want to study further. At that point I then like to switch over to a book and delve into it in greater detail. It is very easy to quickly double check certain pieces of information when viewing the written word, whereas it's hard to queue up a certain point in the video. There is no "either or", there is no best, the combination of both mediums brings me the most success. |
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Tree Loyal user Wiggle Wiggle 295 Posts
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Example
I was working through Mr Schneider's book Magic, working on his Cross Cards, and I couldn't figure out a move, so I went and watched his Al Schneider Tech DVD, and figured it out. Now I have a deeper understanding and better perspective imo when reading Magic and practicing this trick. Same with Matrix, I learned it from Magic, and watched his A.S. Tech DVD and have a better view of what's going on. another warcry in past post on this subject is parroting the dvd. Maybe it happens with a few people, but after thoroughly mastering a trick I think most people add their own style. Same as with learning from a book. |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1216 Posts
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I have a long time friend who works professionally as a mime.
When I recieve a new book or dvd, I hire my friend read or watch the material and then mime the instructions sans cards or coins or doves or small cony. I find with this methodology - learning mediated by mime - I don't encounter the intrinsic failings of either book or dvd learning. Regardless, I realize most magicians are too lazy to adopt my method. A. btw: Though I've felt the urge, I have yet to do physical harm to my mime friend.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10882 Posts
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I wonder what book Al Schnider read, he wrote them all AND THEN SOME.
Slydini must or read his own book....EVERY THING HE DID WAS HIS WON HaRRY LORAYNE WAS TO BUSY WRITING HIS OWN BOOKS TO READ ANYONE ELSES Mickey Silver never read abook in his life ,dont beleve me just ask him every I one mentioned is a world class magician . so my point, reading books does not make a magician and nor does a video.. one must have TALENT.....as well as knowlege |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-06-20 17:12, vinsmagic wrote: Vinny, No one is arguing that at all. Reading a book on astronomy or dance doesn't make one an astronomer or a dancer. Yes, there ARE self-taught magicians. There are ALSO extremely talented magicians who have read a lot - and the list is huge. What is being discussed is the act of learning. When I started in magic I didn't have a mentor Vincenzo. I was formally trained in theater, but that does not guarantee talent. Did my reading of books have much to do with my education as magician? Yes and it does everyday whether I am reading a book, watching a video, or interacting with folks here. Do I have talent? I have no idea. I've made a living with music and magic but that does not mean I am talented. It might mean that the audiences I have performed for as a musician and a magician all had bad taste! 
As I write this I want to see if this is what you mean. Michael Vincent is an eminently talented magician and I defy anyone to argue that. Michael Vincent reads books and cites many great authors as having profound influence on him - including Harry Lorayne. Slydini is a Master of the art and he is one of my true heroes. But, no one at all is equating learning with talent. I know from our private conversations when I was in the states that you are largely self-taught. I am self-taught as a musician and a graphic artist. But does being self-taught make on a better magician, musician, artist, dancer, or what have you? No. Talent is an intelligence and talent is something that others judge in the performer - at least that is how I see it and yep, I could very well be wrong. But, I never have and never will state that I am talented. I will allow my audiences to decide. That said, I see nothing wrong with reading or watching DVDs or having a mentor for that matter. I thank heaven that Lorayne, Schneider, etc., wrote all of those great books. Many here know that I am crazy about magic periodicals. I learn something amazing about this art all of the time and I will continue to read everything I can, watch everything I can, about so many subjects. I can tell you for instance that a googolplex is so large that if the universe was a googolplex meters across, at some point, if you could travel it, you would meet an exact copy of Vinny Marini because the possible number of quantum states that exist is MUCH smaller than a googolplex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GEebx72-qs Now, having learned that does not make me a mathematician. But, I have learned something I had not known and THAT dear friend is why I read, watch, and listen. Ciao, Vlad |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1216 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-06-20 17:42, Vlad_77 wrote: Could someone mime this out for me? Thanks. A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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Dennis Regular user 124 Posts
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When I started in magic there were only books, for that I'm glad.
Yes it was harder to learn but, what I learned (I felt) was MINE. I had to learn the method, I had to learn the effect, I had to create the presentation. When videos can along they made it easier, but they come with an inherent danger... I'm sure you've seen it, you know, the guy comes out and he's Bill Malone, for His next effect He's Michael Ammar, then he's... ...you get it. that's the danger. Aping (notice no 'r') the people he watches. Aside from that, both have their places...TOGETHER. However, you will find a lot more cool stuff hidden in the literature of magic. Stuff that can be your's alone. So, yes I personally love books, videos - they're ok. It's all a matter of what makes YOUR magic better. |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10882 Posts
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Joe teriffic post well said..
my point though is. One has to practice and be deticated not just read or watch. I too was once a very accomplished ,musican having attended The high School of Music And Art..New york City then being accepted to Julliard... I only mention this because I know what it takes to be proficient on a instrument. This takes talent hard work and detication. no matter how hard I tried to sing ..... I CAN'T because I don't have this talent.... .You mention Michael Vincent I AGREE HIS KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM IN MAGIC is second to none. but without talent no matter how hard he tried he would just be another average magician like me, but because he posses talent he is Michael Vincent.. Joe everyone can be a magician but not everyone can be a world class performer. books will not help you do this books will help you become better that's all vinny |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10882 Posts
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Hi Alewisus , I alawys enjoy your posts here on the Café ,good to see you back
vinny |
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Shayde Phoenix Regular user Canada 116 Posts
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I prefer learning from books over video.
I also find that books usually offer more material than the average video does, and at a better price point. |
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Alewishus Inner circle parts unknown 1216 Posts
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Hey Vinny!
Sorry, but I've been waving at my computer screen for the last few hours (miming...I know, stupid). Humans are complex; put a negative spin on 'efficient' and you get 'lazy'. Yes, I love austerity and simplicity as well as excess and profligacy. Hovering over entropy but given to wonderful effulgent fits. What were we talkin’ about? A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5292 Posts
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WOW, I CANT SEE THE ARGUMENT MAKING ANY SENCE WHATSOEVER. Didn't everyone learn like me by simply picking up a magic wand and casting a spell to make the magic happen? Ok, probably not, but both books and video in conjunction with one another are the perfect combination. Face it, there are books out there with 100 - 150 effects and slights between its covers, but how many are worth learning? and how manny are in that category of "filler"? The same goes for dvd s, you might get 10 effects on a $40 dvd and only find 2 effects worth adding to your set. then there are the $35 (one trick pony) dvd s that often end in buyers remorse.
I absolutely agree there are some GREAT books out there and some GREAT dvd sets. the best is when you can find both. Lets just take Troy Hoosers DesTROYers book and DVD set Total Destruction vol 1,2,3. if you don't understand something from one set, refer to the book. if the book isn't completely clear - check the effect on dvd. there is a lot of crossover between the two. yet they both stand on their own. my case, and my SAT and ACT scores as proof, READING COMPREHENSION is not my strongpoint but I have a nearly photographic memory when you SHOW ME HOW to do something. We all learn differently and thank goodness there are so many different ways for us to acheave our goals in magic learning be it Reading in books, watching dvds or even 1 on 1 skype lessons with the likes of Lee Asher and a few others out there.
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).  
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lynnef Inner circle 1395 Posts
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I like BOTH! When Ammar first put his tapes out there, I was very glad that they came with printed instructions as well to mull over. Joshua Jay's books (albeit for novices) come with a dvd demonstrating some of the tricks, but not really a substitute for the book.
Maybe this is an apples and oranges topic. Books often have MUCH more material than can be presented in a dvd (RRTCM could not be laid down in a single dvd eg); but then the dvd's are entertaining to just watch and study the person on the screen. I love Harry Lorayne's books, but I also love watching him on tape ("now we're geting into miracle territory"). ps dvds are not really for lazy people, esp if those dvd's are really challenging! Lynn |
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Cardmagicdavid Regular user 174 Posts
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I find it harder to learn from a Dvd than a book lol . But Dvds like Dan and Dave or Lennart Green for example are full of difficult moves which a lazy person wouldn't learn , I have self working card trick books it's more lazy learning a self working card trick from a book than a difficult sleight from a Dvd ? But it doesn't really matter how you learn as long as you learn right ? I like both and have a mixture of both probably 50 % Dvds and 50 % Books / ebooks in my magic collection .
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billmarq Special user State near Arizona 570 Posts
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Not to repeat my earlier comment that I prefer books over DVDs for the most part, but truly wish all books had accompanying DVDs to demonstrate the more difficult moves, I have to say one thing about books.
When I was very young and first became interested in learning magic, there were no videos from which to learn - only books. The problem I have with the books available to me at that time was that they concentrated more on the moves or the props than they did on presentation. (We are talking about 50 years ago.) I could learn the mechanics of the tricks, but there was seldom any suggested patter that was not outdated, or any suggestions on how to actually entertain an audience while performing. There may have been books available at the time that did these things, but I didn't own them or find them in the library. It seems to me that recently publlished books are better at teaching presentation than the older books. I may be wrong, but this is my own experience.
Honi soit quit mal y pense.
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Posted: Jun 18, 2013 03:34 pm 
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