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LobowolfXXX
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Venezuela! Think he'll be buddies with Sean Penn now? As we all know from playing Risk, Venezuela is one of the four countries in South America, and as the northernmost, it is critical to holding the continent in the case of a North American invasion.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Evidently The US thinks that it is Brazil that is the potential invading force, as per the new revelations of US surveillance of most B......ternet.
mastermindreader
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Why the surprise at the fact that the NSA engages in global spying? That's what ALL spy agencies do and have done since the beginning of time.

Even in the American Revolution the interception and reading of private mail was a standard practice.
tommy
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Maybe we should all get a tin cowboy hat
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On 2013-07-09 12:21, mastermindreader wrote:
Why the surprise at the fact that the NSA engages in global spying? That's what ALL spy agencies do and have done since the beginning of time.

Even in the American Revolution the interception and reading of private mail was a standard practice.

If you're willing to concede your rights as an American as outlined in the Bill of Rights, with the above justification, then so be it.

The extent of the spying, worldwide and within the US itself, was not confirmed until now, with documents. No more plausible denials. Clapper can no longer lie with impunity to Congress. Actually, he can and will, but at least most thinking people now will know he is lying through his teeth.

As to your comment on another thread that private corps gather up info on us all the time: as terrible as that is, when the government does it, it is far worse. The govt unlike the private corps (as of yet anyway) has the power to imprison, torture, and murder with all the apparatus of the State that entails. They also have access to many more databases--surveillance, tax records, court records, medical records and so on.

Do you really think a government that has tapped the bedroom of Martin Luther King has neither used, nor will use, that capability?
tommy
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Then so be it, then Soviet.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Are you seriously stating that the existence of world-wide spying wasn't documented until now?

Really?

But don't mistake my acknowledgment of it as a tacit approval of all of it. I agree with your concern over domestic spying, I just don't think that Snowden's actions were as purely intentioned or as wise as you seem to believe.

As to the government's information gathering vis a vis that of private corporations- the line is very blurry as it is private contractors, employed by the government, who gather most of the information these days. (And who, apparently, are able to give out top secret clearances to their employees- something that was previously done only by the government.)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2013-07-09 12:59, landmark wrote:
Clapper can no longer lie with impunity to Congress. Actually, he can and will


Good catch! It's certainly not like Obama cares, or Holder can be bothered with a little thing like perjury.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
rockwall
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Quote:
On 2013-07-09 13:18, mastermindreader wrote:
Are you seriously stating that the existence of world-wide spying wasn't documented until now?

Really?



Maybe it's just me but I don't think that's what landmark stated.
mastermindreader
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You're right. He said "extent" not "existence." But I'm still surprised that he's surprised.
landmark
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1) Please show where there have been documents made public previously that detail the existence of the surveillance of millions of Americans, Brazilians, Europeans, including countries we usually call "allies."

2) If this hard evidence is nothing new, then it shouldn't have been classified, and Snowden should not have to be charged with violation of the Espionage Act.

3) The US govt has shown in fact, that what they are seeking is worldwide surveillance of everyone. What they can't do through NSA they will do back door with the UK's GCHQ.

4) The complete and utter shredding of any semblance of international law and diplomacy by the US govt, forcing down the Bolivean President's plane to me is astonishing and surprising. I have to say that I didn't think the US govt was that lawless and capable of such open thuggery. Nor did I think that the European countries would acquiesce. That tells me something I hadn't known before about world geopolitics.

5) The rest of the US govt actions, I am not surprised.

6) I am surprised at the extent that support for a clear Orwellian state is coming from those who would never have tolerated the same pre-2008. This does surprise and alarm me. But I do have hope that the more people look into this, the more disturbed they'll be. People are changing their minds everyday, even despite the MSM media demonization of Snowden.
mastermindreader
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Let's see if we have any common ground here. What do you believe should be the proper scope of intelligence gathering in a post 9/11 world?

Recall the outcry that erupted when it was revealed that the FBI was unable to stop the Boston bombing because they apparently lacked critical intelligence or failed to put together the dots. I would think that if NSA surveillance was as draconian as you seem to believe, that the plot would have been foiled. Apparently someone wasn't monitoring the right emails or phone conversations.
stoneunhinged
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Plato's Republic.

Thrasymachus.

Justice is helping your friends and harming your enemies.

Of course, there are variations on the theme.
Al Angello
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Venezuela does look like the country with the least to loose from letting Mr Snowden move there. All the other countries mentioned need a good trade relationship with us. Of course this would mean that my prediction of no more topless dancers for Edward Snowden will not come true in Venezuela.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
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Woland
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Hi Bob and landmark,

I think there are two separate things here. One is espionage, the other is a "surveillance state." I certainly agree that espionage is a necessary part of any nation's defense, and that it would be foolish and malpractice to neglect it, pace Henry L. Stimson. But the surveillance state is, I think, another thing altogether, and very insalubrious. Richard Fernandez has just published a "Kindle" pamphlet about it, in which he observes,

Quote:
The Cold War showed that modern weapons were too powerful to be used on a very large scale because they destroyed the very objects they were used to obtain. Therefore conflict itself will be largely virtualized.

It will be a battle of narratives, or alternatively a struggle between the Narrative and the Anti-narrative.

To avoid self-destruction the contest will be over the control of information. The Edward Snowden scandal, involving “a former technical contractor for the United States National Security Agency (NSA) and a former employee of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) who leaked details of several top-secret U.S. and British government mass surveillance programs to the press” shows the extent to which this struggle has already taken this form.

The object of such information battles will not be for the physical possession of conquered lands guarded by giant industrial-age armies but for the control of data, technology and the tokens we call money.

The beginnings of this process are already in evidence and it is gathering steam. Video camera surveillance, extended perhaps through worn appliances like Google Glasses, will become ubiquitous. Hate speech codes will severely restrict political speech, little of which will go unmonitored. The widespread use of email, telephone and intercepts will make communications privacy largely extinct. The regulation, not only of firearms but of any potentially threatening object such as fertilizer, electronic fuses or pressure cookers, will increase.


There will be no freedom in the surveillance state, and therefore no art, no literature, and no magic. And the life of man nasty, poor, brutish, and short.
Jonathan Townsend
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Was that Brian O'blivion from Videodrome?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mastermindreader
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I think that article makes some very good points.
Jonathan Townsend
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Narrative only gets people to squeeze or push at the same time. Caring about which futures get crushed or mangled is a separate narrative.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2013-07-09 16:51, mastermindreader wrote:
Let's see if we have any common ground here. What do you believe should be the proper scope of intelligence gathering in a post 9/11 world?...


Bob, as best I understand the matter, it's not about our intelligence agencies doing what they feel they have to to minimize the risks of terrorist violence - ie doing their jobs - especially after the huge FAILs of 9/11.

Do you want to condone the "information entitled" flaunting their "ability to investigate" and right to access by showing selected bits of your private life as the new America's funniest home videos? That's pretty much what the webcam and laptop suppliers were doing. Just how many abuses do you need to read about before you start voicing a demand for warrants, oversight and more respect for our bill of rights?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Quote:
Recall the outcry that erupted when it was revealed that the FBI was unable to stop the Boston bombing because they apparently lacked critical intelligence or failed to put together the dots. I would think that if NSA surveillance was as draconian as you seem to believe, that the plot would have been foiled. Apparently someone wasn't monitoring the right emails or phone conversations.


Precisely. The surveillance has thwarting of terrorists is only a minor function of the surveillance, and it does a lousy job at that. The purpose is to cow the rest of the world to do the US govt's bidding, and to intimidate anyone who would think of challenging the present insanity. Destabilization of foreign governments and institutions that are unfavored run a close second. I suspect we will eventually also find a brisk business being done in the theft of intellectual property, insider trading, and corporate and political blackmail as bonuses as well.
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