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ed wood
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I've been playing around with the concept of a spectator as mind reader effect for a few years but have never come up with anything that satisfies me. Most of the modern effects in this vein I have read seem to rely heavily on DR which unless extremely subtle I always avoid for the corporates I work where people are guarenteed to talk to one another afterwards.
I'm considering the idea of using the Dun***ger ploy to get information from the first audience member to join me on stage, something like a star sign or possibly something completely random. I then need to force this on audience member two and this is where I'm drawing a blank. I don't want to go the instant stooge method, again because I am working corporates where people will be talking afterwards, usually over a drink, and I can't see the secret lasting more than a few minutes.
Anyone got any thoughts or recomendations of routines of this nature.
Thanks, Ed
ed wood
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Guaranteed is a hard word to spell!!!
parmenion
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Few years and never find a solution!
man !
There's many solution but no one I can talk in penny
“I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about.”
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ed wood
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Phew, good to get the obligatory snarky, pointless reply out of the way nice and early Smile
funsway
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It is fairly simple to create a condition or demonstration in which another person will be convinced they can or did "read your mind." I have done this thousands of times with 100% success. The problem is that you wish to do this "for entertainment." More exactly, you wish other people to be convinced that a seemingly random spectator read your mind in a controlled fashion -- and sustain that belief over time. These two objectives are in conflict.

For me, the very use of the term "instant stooge" indicates why this approach does not work for you. The only way to achieve either objective (they read your mind vs. entertaining others) is grounding in respect and trust -- at least the perceptions of these qualities.

The focus must be on how to create a situation in which the person who reads your mind will never reveal method or does not consciously know the method, or that there is no "method/secret" to reveal. You apparent belief that "I can't see the secret lasting more than a few minutes" means that you can never create the situation in which this is not true. When you "know" that you can select a Volunteer Assistant who will both read your mind and never reveal any "private insight" then you can do that also.

I doubt that you will believe this -- which is the point. You must get beyond believing into knowing. If you get beyond the "playing around" stage drop me a PM.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
ed wood
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On 2013-08-03 07:25, funsway wrote:
It is fairly simple to create a condition or demonstration in which another person will be convinced they can or did "read your mind." I have done this thousands of times with 100% success. The problem is that you wish to do this "for entertainment." More exactly, you wish other people to be convinced that a seemingly random spectator read your mind in a controlled fashion -- and sustain that belief over time. These two objectives are in conflict.

For me, the very use of the term "instant stooge" indicates why this approach does not work for you. The only way to achieve either objective (they read your mind vs. entertaining others) is grounding in respect and trust -- at least the perceptions of these qualities.


The focus must be on how to create a situation in which the person who reads your mind will never reveal method or does not consciously know the method, or that there is no "method/secret" to reveal. You apparent belief that "I can't see the secret lasting more than a few minutes" means that you can never create the situation in which this is not true. When you "know" that you can select a Volunteer Assistant who will both read your mind and never reveal any "private insight" then you can do that also.


I doubt that you will believe this -- which is the point. You must get beyond believing into knowing. If you get beyond the "playing around" stage drop me a PM.



I'M NOT SURE HOW PERFORMING FOR ENTERTAINMENT IS A PROBLEM, I'M NOT SURE IF I'D GET MANY BOOKINGS OF I DIDN'T SET OUT TO ENTERTAIN. TO CLAIM THOSE TWO OBJECTIVES ARE IN CONFLICT IS SURELY THE ISSUE, I WANT TO ERASE THAT CONFLICT.


"INSTANT STOOGE" IS NOTHING MORE THAN TERM AND A SIMPLE WAY TO DESCRIBE A SCENARIO WITHOUT GIVING A LONG, TEDIOUS AND PRETENTIOUS EXPLANATION

THIS IS EXACTLY MY DILEMMA AND THE SCENARIO I THOUGHT I HAD CLEARLY DESCRIBED (ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT MY MIND THAT WILL BE READ BUT ANOTHER AUDIENCE MEMBER). I.E. A MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE READS ANOTHER PERSONS MIND WITHOUT KNOWING THE METHOD, ERGO NO USE OF INSTANT STOOGING OR OVERT DR.

OK, UMM, I DO BELIEVE YOU, OR AT LEAST I BELIEVE YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. ALTHOUGH IF THE POINT OF YOU TAKING THE TIME TO WRITE WHAT YOU HAVE WAS THAT I WOULDN'T BELIEVE YOU THEN IT DOES LEAD TO THE QUESTION OF WHY YOU TOOK THE TIME TO WRITE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Oops, cap lock (not shouting, honest)
funsway
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Because I am trying to help you in a search for an effect that might work for you. Though you may not believe me, nor choose to find value in what I offer, my experience is that your attitude towards the type of effect you are attempting can bias its success.

Now we have the evidence that even though you noticed that your message was in caps you chose not to rewrite it -- meaning that your leaving it as "shouting" was intentional. This would seem to indicate that you are indeed just "playing around" and will never find what you seek. i.e. you can only learn that for which your experience has prepared you.

No, you did not make clear that having one spectator read the mind of another was the only scenario you were considering. Additionally, your statement of, A MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE READS ANOTHER PERSONS MIND WITHOUT KNOWING THE METHOD, ERGO NO USE OF INSTANT STOOGING OR OVERT DR." means that your mind is closed to many possible solutions.

Is it possible you are not looking for a solution at all, but an external excuse for your inability to perform such an effect? Is it possible you do not yet have the life experience of direct human interaction to make this work?

I will restate my experienced opinion that the desire to "get many bookings" may preclude doing this kind of effect. You may be wonderful in other types of effects. Find what works for you and follow ... no need to try and fit a square peg in a round hole.

Yet, I can appreciate that you are drawn for some reason to this possible demonstration. In this you may wish to explore what is required to make of yourself the person who can do this effectively. In this I could be of assistance. I can think of many ways in which I could do this effect. This does not mean that I can teach you how to do it. Convince me that I should care.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
ed wood
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Quote:
On 2013-08-03 08:34, funsway wrote:
Because I am trying to help you in a search for an effect that might work for you. Though you may not believe me, nor choose to find value in what I offer, my experience is that your attitude towards the type of effect you are attempting can bias its success.

Now we have the evidence that even though you noticed that your message was in caps you chose not to rewrite it -- meaning that your leaving it as "shouting" was intentional. This would seem to indicate that you are indeed just "playing around" and will never find what you seek. i.e. you can only learn that for which your experience has prepared you.

No, you did not make clear that having one spectator read the mind of another was the only scenario you were considering. Additionally, your statement of, A MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE READS ANOTHER PERSONS MIND WITHOUT KNOWING THE METHOD, ERGO NO USE OF INSTANT STOOGING OR OVERT DR." means that your mind is closed to many possible solutions.

Is it possible you are not looking for a solution at all, but an external excuse for your inability to perform such an effect? Is it possible you do not yet have the life experience of direct human interaction to make this work?

I will restate my experienced opinion that the desire to "get many bookings" may preclude doing this kind of effect. You may be wonderful in other types of effects. Find what works for you and follow ... no need to try and fit a square peg in a round hole.

Yet, I can appreciate that you are drawn for some reason to this possible demonstration. In this you may wish to explore what is required to make of yourself the person who can do this effectively. In this I could be of assistance. I can think of many ways in which I could do this effect. This does not mean that I can teach you how to do it. Convince me that I should care.


Wow, just Wow!! You sure know how to suck the fun out of life. It's not a case of believing or not, it's more a case of not having a clue what you're talking about. You write like a comedy, cliche guru. I apologise if that sounds rude but it irks me when people claim to have a concise understanding of anothers motives purely from a few innocent words written on an internet forum. Did it occur to you that the reason I didn't re-write my cap locked words was because I didn't think it was important, I couldn't be bothered and I didn't think anyone would be so humourless and sensitive to take it the wrong way.
I'm pretty sure I did make it abundantly clear that I would be performing on two people, hence the use of spectator one and spectator two and absolutely no mention of anyone reading my mind. May I suggest you listen and read the words of others before coming forth with your opinions. Being so quick to judge is not an attractive trait and is most certainly not helpful.


"Is it possible you are not looking for a solution at all, but an external excuse for your inability to perform such an effect? Is it possible you do not yet have the life experience of direct human interaction to make this work?"

***, you got me man. I really don't want a solution. I just started this thread for funsies. What, do you mean I actually have to leave my home and speak to other people?? Oh no, the real world scares me. Do you not see the irony here, you talking about human interaction, on the internet, with your thousands of posts?
I too can think of many ways to do this effect, I'm sure many people can. I have just failed to find a method that truly satisfies all my requirements. Maybe I never will. I posted on here not because I am looking for a routine to steal but hoping to get a few ideas that might spark something else. Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't. Like I said, I'm just playing with ideas at the moment and maybe I'll end up with an idea I can work on and create something special with. It's apparent that you're not the type to offer ideas freely without needing to share your superfluous, supercilious philosophising. But thanks anyway. Do you really not see the arrogance in asking me to convince you to care? Person on the internet, who I have never met, and have no concept of your credentials. Surely you need to convince me you have anything of worth to say first, the evidence so far isn't looking good.

It does dawn on me after writing the above that maybe I'm the newbie being messed with here. Can anyone really be this sanctimonious? If you are trolling me (as I believe the kids like to call it), then you well and truly got me man, don't I look the dummy!
With that said, if anyone does have any thoughts, hints or ideas they will all be much appreciated. If not, I'll just keep on keeping on. Cheerio.
IAIN
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Well, that went well...
I've asked to be banned
parmenion
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Smile
“I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about.”
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<BR>
<BR>Looking for the best book test in French? send me a PM!
ed wood
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Quote:
On 2013-08-03 09:43, IAIN wrote:
Well, that went well...


Didn't it just!! Smile)
Oh well, it was worth a try. I guess I'll stick to actual "human interaction" for advice. I never have and never will understand why people bother to reply in such places when all they have to offer is bullying, discourteous abuse thinly veiled as guidance. I suppose it comes from the same mentality as those who abuse strangers on twitter and facebook.I'm sure if I had such time on my hands I'd find something better to do (I write whilst lying in my garden listening to the cricket, such a hectic life).
If my original question was unsuited to this forum or in any way caused offence then I can only apologise. It would appear that seeking advice here was crassly naive of me and evidently demonstrated my many failings as both a person and performer, I can only hope that the day will come when I too have thousands of posts on the magic Café and can criticize newcomers with aplomb for having the audacity to ask for advice.
backinblack
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Well, under the circumstances you wrote duninger ploy wouldn´t work neither.. also not with guy 1 and 2.. think about the situation at a table (and as the guys should know each other as the one knows something about the other - I guess they would sit together at the table):

2: "how could he know my name?"

1: "well I told him - he asked for"

so 1 method I would point to: psy force..
WitchesHat
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Not much can be said on this part of the forum because people get nervous about exposure. What you've been looking for is similar to what I've been looking for, and like you I haven't found an entirely satisfactory solution.

Here are some ideas, or seeds of a routine. It's the best I can offer.

Tossed out deck, plus 'Automatic writing', the participant writes things down without looking at the paper or being aware of what they're writing. The advantage to this is that you're in control of all parts, the deck can be anything, normal, tarot, a selection of photos etc, and the overall effect will work. The disadvantage is no conscious decision is made by either spectator. Also if your worried about everyone in the audience talking, the T.O.D. can fall apart.

T.O.D. plus psychological force, you have five spectators look at a card from the deck, and have a participant name five cards, with the right priming chances are they'll name the one card you want. So the advantage is that the participant actually makes a conscious decision, the disadvantage is no psyche force is 100% and once again the T.O.D could be a problem.

psych force plus psych force, advantages and disadvantages are obvious. limited selection but completely clean, chances of working perfectly depend on how good you are at controlling responses, personally I suck at it. Either way you'll need an 'out' or at least a stronger effect afterwards.

P.K touch, this can easily be done as mind reading, go through the spiel and do some mental ritual, the two people are in sync, talk about a twin who's felt what the other is experiencing, talk about leaving the body and entering someone else's, talk about how to begin mind reading we start with physical sensations, and how the mind controls what we actually feel etc etc.

Book test plus magic colouring book / padgali. You put one spectator into a 'trance', you have two books, both the same. Person from the audience choses a page of a book and reads the first sentence / word in their head. Person two opens their book to the same page, tell them you're asking them to just read out the word / sentence the spectator chose. You then ask the spectator was that correct, he says yes, so far no ones impressed, you've just had two people read the same part of the same book. Except you then reveal the book the person on stage is holding is completely blank, you flip through to show everyone.

This can also work as a book of pictures, a photo album etc.

That's all I can really share, hope you found it at least somewhat helpful.
ed wood
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Quote:
On 2013-08-03 10:35, backinblack wrote:
Well, under the circumstances you wrote duninger ploy wouldn´t work neither.. also not with guy 1 and 2.. think about the situation at a table (and as the guys should know each other as the one knows something about the other - I guess they would sit together at the table):

2: "how could he know my name?"

1: "well I told him - he asked for"

so 1 method I would point to: psy force..


My thinking regarding dunninger ploy was that it wouldn't matter if this was discussed, I see this as suitably subtle DR, to the extent that it wouldn't be worthy of discussing. It wouldn't be a case of me claiming to read this information (and therefore having to play down the moment as per Dunninger) but the 2nd audience member. Making it necessary to force said piece of information on audience member 2. How that is done remains at present a mystery. The use of a psy force is definitely a strong consideration.
As a brief aside I feel I should talk a little more about my distrust of DR. Whilst it can be used with great success I feel it is overly used at times. Some may believe, rightly or wrongly that I am naive and inexperienced in handling audiences and understanding how they think and for that reason have failed to use DR properly. I believe, and I appreciate how arrogant this sounds but it is just an opinion, that the opposite is true. Too many times we underestimate the audience. An example of this is Luke Jermays new show. A friend of mine has seen it and mentioned how DR was used and word soon got out amongst the audience afterwards. Love him or hate him Luke is a very talented performer and if he is getting caught out then anyone can. I feel it is best used amongst many others elements of a routine so it seems irrelevant. When the sole method behind a routine is DR even the best performer can be caught out.
ed wood
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On 2013-08-03 11:17, WitchesHat wrote:
Not much can be said on this part of the forum because people get nervous about exposure. What you've been looking for is similar to what I've been looking for, and like you I haven't found an entirely satisfactory solution.

Here are some ideas, or seeds of a routine. It's the best I can offer.

Tossed out deck, plus 'Automatic writing', the participant writes things down without looking at the paper or being aware of what they're writing. The advantage to this is that you're in control of all parts, the deck can be anything, normal, tarot, a selection of photos etc, and the overall effect will work. The disadvantage is no conscious decision is made by either spectator. Also if your worried about everyone in the audience talking, the T.O.D. can fall apart.

T.O.D. plus psychological force, you have five spectators look at a card from the deck, and have a participant name five cards, with the right priming chances are they'll name the one card you want. So the advantage is that the participant actually makes a conscious decision, the disadvantage is no psyche force is 100% and once again the T.O.D could be a problem.

psych force plus psych force, advantages and disadvantages are obvious. limited selection but completely clean, chances of working perfectly depend on how good you are at controlling responses, personally I suck at it. Either way you'll need an 'out' or at least a stronger effect afterwards.

P.K touch, this can easily be done as mind reading, go through the spiel and do some mental ritual, the two people are in sync, talk about a twin who's felt what the other is experiencing, talk about leaving the body and entering someone else's, talk about how to begin mind reading we start with physical sensations, and how the mind controls what we actually feel etc etc.

Book test plus magic colouring book / padgali. You put one spectator into a 'trance', you have two books, both the same. Person from the audience choses a page of a book and reads the first sentence / word in their head. Person two opens their book to the same page, tell them you're asking them to just read out the word / sentence the spectator chose. You then ask the spectator was that correct, he says yes, so far no ones impressed, you've just had two people read the same part of the same book. Except you then reveal the book the person on stage is holding is completely blank, you flip through to show everyone.

This can also work as a book of pictures, a photo album etc.

That's all I can really share, hope you found it at least somewhat helpful.


Lots to think about there, thankyou. The purpose of the routine is as a finale to a PK touches effect, the "now you're in synch here's what you can do" concept.
The use of a TOD is something to think about.
Again, thanks for your thoughts
backinblack
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Quote:
On 2013-08-03 11:17, ed wood wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-03 10:35, backinblack wrote:

2: "how could he know my name?"

1: "well I told him - he asked for"




My thinking regarding dunninger ploy was that it wouldn't matter if this was discussed, I see this as suitably subtle DR, to the extent that it wouldn't be worthy of discussing. (...) Making it necessary to force said piece of information on audience member 2. (...)

As a brief aside I feel I should talk a little more about my distrust of DR. (...)


well, if you think that the communication I wrote probably will not come up due to the solution you mentioned: just go for it..

yes, I also see this problem with dr in the field (small gruoups and afterwards talk) you mentioned.. the same with preshow-work..
magic123
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Learn your History ,But in a word.

PUNX

m123
ed wood
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On 2013-08-03 15:19, magic123 wrote:
Learn your History ,But in a word.

PUNX

m123


"Learn your history"!!! Aren't you the charmer.
I assume you're referring to Punx the magician and not the glam punk band Hunx and his Punx, if the later, how very enlightened of you.
But less about everyones favourite gay punk band and back on topic. Great minds think alike, I imagine this is what you are referring to. This is very much what I have in mind but when I have tried it out in the past I haven't had much luck. I was considering starting a thread on here asking for details on the best paper to use and whether there have been any updates on the technique in the last 60 years but now I'm afraid I might be met with the same charm offensive I have in this thread.
mastermindreader
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Ed-

Have you considered having participants gaze into a crystal or other scrying-type object (ring, inkblot, hypno-spiral, watch crystal, etc.) as a means of "focusing" their thoughts?

I can't get into methods here, but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. If an audience member later says to a friend, "Well I SAW it in the crystal," nothing would be exposed.

Sorry for the reception you got here.

Good thoughts,

Bob
ed wood
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On 2013-08-03 15:55, mastermindreader wrote:
Ed-

Have you considered having participants gaze into a crystal or other scrying-type object (ring, inkblot, hypno-spiral, watch crystal, etc.) as a means of "focusing" their thoughts?

I can't get into methods here, but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. If an audience member later says to a friend, "Well I SAW it in the crystal," nothing would be exposed.

Sorry for the reception you got here.

Good thoughts,

Bob


Hi Bob,
Whilst I have considered the use of a crystal I have always dismissed it as I've felt it's use would be out of place with the style of my performance. The use of an inkblot or a hypno spiral, particularly the hypno spiral as it's something I already use on stage, could work. In fact that is a darn good idea, now that is the kind of advice I was hoping for. Thank you so much for taking the time to think and write about this subject. I really think a hypno spiral could be perfect, for a long time I've been considering an object for a person to stare at for the information to be "transmitted" through and the spiral would perfectly match my presentation, brilliant!!
As for the reception here, I had been warned to expect it but the knowledge and support of the few more than surpasses the lack of manners of the remainder.
Thanks, Ed
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