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Magicbarry Loyal user Toronto 276 Posts 
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I think some are being unduly harsh with Maritress. First, as anyone who's ever written for mainstream publication can tell you, space is rather limited. There's only so much detail one can go into, so general comments are often the rule of the day in a piece like this -- which is basically an overview piece, not an expose. Exposes are much, much longer and more detailed.
Second, people are focusing on one paragraph in which she gives samples of her experiences. Perhaps she could have given more detail -- but perhaps that would have involved naming names, and what would the reaction have been had she done that? Imagine the outcry if she accused a known magician of distributing porn. Yes, she was non-specific, but this is one paragraph and not worth the hand-wringing. This is something we should value. Even if it's off-base, it's an article in which a successful female magician talks about her PERCEPTIONS, and if this is the way a female perceives the magic community, is it in our best interests to dismiss it or demand "proof! proof! proof!"? Shouldn't we be asking why she sees the magic community this way, even if it doesn't match our experiences? There should be more women in magic. That's something I'm sure we can all agree upon. But it's not something that's likely to happen if someone suggests reasons why they have felt uncomfortable in magic circles and men line up to say she's full of it. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10618 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-08-19 13:39, Magicbarry wrote: Your post leads only to more questions. First if she is such a professional, this is unacceptable behavior from a male or female referencing the industry they are supposedly a professional within. Secondly you are correct about this feature having rather limited space, so again, why on earth would this how you refer to your industry, or industry negatives (even if only in mind or experience)? She comes off as having a chip on her shoulder. It is a gross misuse of newspaper space and a true media opportunity. It should have been used to postively promote herself, her plight of more women in magic, not to discredit the industry. Thirdly, if she would have just stated that the porn, sex was her findings in her experiences it still would have been bad enough (but still completely unnecessary), but she references it as the entire industry. Then after the story came out she has said here in all three or four current posts going that it exists industry-wide and has for years, and those that haven't experienced have not been to the depths of the industry as she as (paraphrasing). Yes, there should be more women in magic. That's something I'm sure we can all agree upon. But it's not something that's likely to happen as a result of these perspectives and as a result of what she is perpetuating. This is not how "a professional" goes about making a point or gaining support from anyone (male or females) within any industry. Unduly harsh? |
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Magicbarry Loyal user Toronto 276 Posts
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Quote: Unacceptable? What's unacceptable? Talking about her experiences? Or do we just think it's "unacceptable" to say the Emperor has no clothes?
On 2013-08-19 13:55, Mindpro wrote: Quote: I'm not sure you understood the point of the article if you need to ask that question.
Secondly you are correct about this feature having rather limited space, so again, why on earth would this how you refer to your industry, or industry negatives (even if only in mind or experience)? Quote: No, she comes off as someone who has had experiences that differ from what some of us may have had, and she comes off as someone who found those experiences negative. It's a shame someone can't open up about that sort of thing without it being shrugged off as a "chip on her shoulder."
She comes off as having a chip on her shoulder. Quote: I'm sure the Seattle Times has a sense of what is good use of newspaper space, but you can take it up with them. I, personally, think it's good for someone to write an article in mainstream media that actually encourages girls to go into magic -- as Maritess does at the conclusion. It's ultimately a very positive article, but people here aren't reading it as such because they got their backs up.
It is a gross misuse of newspaper space and a true media opportunity. Quote: Perhaps you didn't read through to the end of the article.
It should have been used to postively promote herself, her plight of more women in magic, not to discredit the industry. Quote: Actually, she does put it in terms of her experiences. What, did you also want her to say, "But I've talked to some men and they say they haven't experienced the same thing"? That would be pointless. But what she did do was say she got into magic and witnessed these things.
Thirdly, if she would have just stated that the porn, sex was her findings in her experiences it still would have been bad enough (but still completely unnecessary), but she references it as the entire industry. Quote: Actually, she never says "industry wide," but that's beside the point.
Then after the story came out she has said here in all three or four current posts going that it exists industry-wide and has for years, and those that haven't experienced have not been to the depths of the industry as she as (paraphrasing). Quote:
Yes, there should be more women in magic. That's something I'm sure we can all agree upon. But it's not something that's likely to happen as a result of these perspectives and as a result of what she is perpetuating. This is not how "a professional" goes about making a point or gaining support from anyone (male or females) within any industry. "Maritess, don't speak honestly about your experiences. Sugar-coat things so no one gets upset. If the feminist movement has taught us anything, it's that a woman is much happier if she doesn't know what to expect. Ignorance is bliss!" We only move forward if we allow people to open our eyes. We might see that they haven't quite got it right, but when we keep their experience in mind, we usually find that we didn't have it right, either. Quote: Yup.
Unduly harsh? |
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts
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Magicbarry,check out the thread in 'The feminine Mystique'.
Member Slyhand,asked a question...see how nice she,replied! Does come across,like she has a attitude! I admit,the talk of porn and pictures,then she has a nude photo in tub,was amusing!
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Magicbarry Loyal user Toronto 276 Posts
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Quote: So?
On 2013-08-19 14:29, Godzilla wrote: Did I suggest she's a friendly message-board poster? What is the relevance to the topic? |
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-08-19 13:39, Magicbarry wrote: So,the above would be the relevance...
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Magicbarry Loyal user Toronto 276 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-08-19 14:51, Godzilla wrote: "She said something a little rude to one person so it's okay if people suggest she's a liar." Okey doke. |
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts
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I've not seen any post,suggesting she is a liar!
They have said,that are not seeing what she has seen!
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-08-18 02:33, Maritess wrote: Darn, I thought I had made it into the "Inner Circle" when David Williamson came up to me at MAGIC Live and asked me to have his picture taken with me. Now I know he was just foolin and that I won't achieve that much coveted "inner Circle" status until he hands me a copy of "Debbie Does Dallas". I was so close.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Dollarbill Inner circle Colorado 1005 Posts
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I don't have any input here for the topic but I will say after reading some of the lady magician names and Google-ing them, I had no idea how many smokin' hot female magicians there are.
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10798 Posts
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The photo of Maritess on her own web site - nude in the bathtub covered in Tally Ho playing cards... was just extremely odd. Weird really.
I rarely see those kinds of shots on ANYONES web sites, much less a "successful" female Magician/Hypnotist or whatever. So does that mean she she decided that to make it in our industry, she decided to play along with what she seems to be griping about in her commentary? It is all just so odd - such a double standard - and then she comes on the Café literally boasting in multple threads that we should all read and somehow respect how she has denigrated both herself and our industry? Maritess? Hello Maritess? Lets talk about the bathtub shot? What up with that? Look many performers in many industries do these kind of punlicitry shots... nothing wrong with if you got it flaunt it. But then crowing about how Magic is a male dominated industry filled with porn and unsavory people who don't respect women (which is essentially what her piece stated)... that is as many have said her and utter joke and a true waste of your golden opportunity to have furthered yourself and your industry. What a shame and a waste.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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lynnef Inner circle 1407 Posts
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I read the article a second time and still like it. Essence of the article is 'superb and insightful'. Patriarchy has been with us since Genesis (perhaps not since the beginning of time, but its institutionalized in the Bible). Porn however has become almost mainstream (a billion dollar industry) in America; and yes, there are magicians who've had their pictures taken with porn stars. (and NO, we wont name names!). But again, that's not the essence of the article. Meanwhile, there's a great movie out there called "King of Masks" (Chinese movie about a man who must pass his magical arts down to a son, but he only has a daughter!). Lynn
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Misty Lee New user 73 Posts
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With all due respect Maritess, I think you are dead wrong.
Your article made me angry. Full response is here: http://mistylee.com/women-in-magic/ It's lengthy, but I'll copy and paste it here if necessary. Interested in reading your thoughts. Misty
http://www.mistylee.com
Whoever said the hand is quicker than the eye never tried rolling the two down a ramp. |
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Steve Suss Inner circle 1193 Posts
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Quote: Misty, that was a fantastic article with advice that should apply to everyone. I think most men and women would love to see more woman in magic. This topic deserves an honest discussion and that's exactly what your article offers. By the way, I could just visualize you cutting some guy in half. Now that would be fun and isn't that what it's all about? Thanks for taking the time to offer some of your perspective. I'd love to hear some more.
On 2013-08-20 16:13, Misty Lee wrote: Steve |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10798 Posts
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Quote:
On 2013-08-20 16:13, Misty Lee wrote: Superb - I will need to read your response more than once to absorb the depth and nuances. Really though provoking. Thank you - I will have more to say in coming days after spending some time with the ideas.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts
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Very Insightful,Misty!
To be honest,if I have a choice between seeing a upcoming Female Magician or a upcoming Male Magician,it will be the Female,Hands down! The times,they are a changing !
I'm all for the,Woman Performer! ~G
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Discordia New user 7 Posts
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I enjoyed your article too Misty! There certainly needs to be more women in magic....I created a group on google if anyone is interested.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!......agicians I think the reason there aren't a lot of women is magic is partially socialization: lots of girls just don't see a lot of magic or know any other female magicians as role models. I started magic largely because of my dad. And also because there is a little bit of a boys club attitude in some of the clubs; which is in part because there aren't a lot of female magicians! |
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ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts
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This is going to sound stupid, but I think the main reason that so many female magicians don't get the credit they are due is that they either try to perform like men, or they try to perform like WOMEN. By that, I mean that if a woman tried to perform a dove routine in tails, it just wouldn't look "right". At one extreme of the female spectrum, polka dot hats and bloomers would work fine in a children's show, but not so well in a gala FISM show. At the other extreme, the "sex sells" look would be equally out of place and, for many, uncomfortable.
Women are special partially because of their beauty and fragility, and I don't mean that in a demeaning sort of way. I have seen many female magicians, and the ones that I enjoy the most are those who use their beauty and fragility to their advantage - performers such as Jade, Princess Tenko, and Tina Lenert.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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Misty Lee New user 73 Posts
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For the record, Lynn - I've had my picture taken with porn stars, too - had dinner once with Traci Lords, and even did a MOVIE with Ron Jeremy (not that kind, but still). So it isn't just the boys.
A well-known magician read the Seattle Times article and is pretty miffed about it too, 'cause he says he's been attending magic conventions for 40+ years, and has never been offered any porn. He's incensed that other attendees have been 'bogarting'. *grin* For what it's worth, Discordia: Almost ALL of my role models are male. Most of them are *dead* now, but still male. *shrug, grin again*
http://www.mistylee.com
Whoever said the hand is quicker than the eye never tried rolling the two down a ramp. |
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Discordia New user 7 Posts
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True....I am not even anti porn really...That is pretty awesome you met Traci Lords and Ron Jeremy...my point is it seems like most women are really, really uncomfortable with porn and dirty jokes, so maybe that is slightly the issue. Or is it that women who like magic tend to get along better with men anyway? This is an interesting conversation!
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Posted: Aug 19, 2013 05:39 pm 
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