Martin-

Two posts back I wrote:
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>>>Geoff Ronning, by the way, is a highly skilled hypnotist, mentalist AND entertainer. He is not misrepresenting anything when he says that you can learn what you need for a successful show in just three days of intensive training. I'm sure that his seminar is perfect for the experienced performer who wants to add hypnosis to his repertoire.<<<
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Looking over your posts I can't see anything with which I really disagree.

You said in your last post that:

>>>There seems to be a connection trying to be made between those who take three day training and people who haven't done any other research or reading on the subject. This is a far reach for a conclusion on this matter<<<

Try as I might, I can't see where I said that the only ones who attend three day seminars are those who haven't done prior reading or research. What I did imply was that without performing skills, no one should be led to believe that they are going to come out of a 3 day seminar magically transformed into a talented and, dare I say, original, stage hypnotist.

I sure didn't fool you with my little Erickson Joke! I did think the Fiddle Forum bit was pretty funny, though.



Best-

Bob

Sorry Bob:

I must have read your post wrong. After rereading your post, you're right you didn't. I guess I'm still a little touchy from my old newsgroup days.

Original Hypnotist - isn't that an oxymoron =-)

Ok Bill: An anti-hypnotherapist (I know its my term) is someone who rants on that stage hypnosis should be banned completely. The main reasons (my personal experience) is they are envious of the stage hypnotists skill and recognition by the general public.

I would have at least two or three people come back stage after most shows asking me to do therapy with them. I always tried to refer them to a local hypnotherapist but they always insisted they wanted to work with me. Back then I just wasn't interested. I was earning around £4000 for a two hour show in theatres and around £600 for one hour in a club or University.

I mention my various Certifications and related experience to assure you that my theraputic skills are higher than many if not most of the local hypnotherapists.

I agree that three days is not enough training. I also said in my previous post that even with all the training available some people are not cut out to be successful stage hypnotists. (or even hypnotherapist for that matter)

The only point I was making is that you have to start somewhere. The other point was that all these stage courses e-books appearing from everywhere will cause many problems for stage hypnosis. Who knows, it might be the start of problems we experienced in the UK.

I agree. I hate these three day pack them in courses. The thing is most successful stage hypnotists started off with only a little training knowledge to start with and gained more as they went on. As Bob rightly states in his above post it takes years to develop.

The problems are going to come along now because of the popularity and willingness of many to sell these courses to the general public. I agree with you on most counts. However getting the thread pulled because of the dangers etc. is a bit to much.

And yes many of my experiences are incidental but I have testimonials if you want to look at them...

I just want to throw in a couple of points here. First, Geoff does encourage people interested in his training to read, view, and/or listen to everything they can get their hands on regarding hypnosis.

Also, it appears his primary marketing is to people like magicians, DJs, and clowns. In other words, people who already have performance and public speaking skills.

It appears that a few people posting here are rather put out with Geoff for marketing a three day training. Yet, Blair mentions that Ormond McGill and Jerry Valley have done three day trainings. Horrors! Why isn't anybody going on a rant about that?

I'm not trying to start a flame war, folks, I'm really not. But come on, sauce for the goose...

See ya!
Joe L.

Joe,

I hope you aren't reading my posts that way. Go back to the first post in the thread whers Amir began:




That's essentially what I'm responding to. That and the Power Fiddling Seminar.

Best-

Bob

Indeed, Dr. Bob, I think you and I are on the same page. In fact, my B.A. is in theatre, and I have considerable experience as an actor and variety performer. So I'd venture to say you are correct when you say Geoff's training is perfect for experienced performers.

Now, for someone who's never gotten on stage before, I'm sure they'd still learn a lot at Geoff's training, but it's not likely they'll be ready to do a show a few weeks afterwards.

I'm all into Power Fiddling. How can I register for the seminar?

See ya!
Joe L.

I don't think its likely but I do think some would be able to even without any performing experience.

The quality of the show would be another matter. But may be enough to get you by if you had enough B****.

Many have started with less (which I don't recommend).

I attended Geoff and Wendy Ronning's seminar in Seattle last year and I can confirm that it is first-rate. I recommend it highly. The style they teach is very contemporary, so that you are connecting with today's younger audiences, where the market is. This is an important point - the culture of a person born circa 1985 is very different from one born circa 1950, and a commercially successful stage hypnosis act has to recognise that fact (whether one likes it or not). They are very strong on the marketing aspect, too. Their website is http://www.stagehypnosiscenter.com

On the question of how much preparation a person needs to become a capable stage hypnotist, it's a tricky one to answer. You do have to start somewhere, and every stage hypnotist working today did have a first show when they knew a lot less than they do now. There is a huge amount a person *can* learn about hypnosis in general, stage hypnosis in particular, stagecraft, comedy, from reading, observing other performers, attending seminars and so on. You have to write and memorise an excellent script, have a stock of one-liners, a good CD with sound effects and music, and maybe props if you want them. You can do a lot of work yourself to be well-prepared. I think you have to look on a three-day seminar as merely one part of that process of development. You have to be as well prepared as possible for your first few shows, but only through experience in performing do you become really good.

Unlike many other occupations, there is no formal training process for stage hypnosis in which an apprenctice can work his way up to become a master. You are expected to come fully formed, like Venus from the head of Zeus. (And that's not a metaphor I'd recommend using with an audience born in 1985.)

Let me address some issues one at a time. First, to Shrink. While trying to make some of my points about what you said that I agreed with, I get the sense that what I disagreed with was what stuck with you. To me, the things that we agreed on are the most important. I even tried to put smiley faces by my disagreements to keep things lighter but my ignorance on how to do this led to their ending up at the bottom of my post.

Let me now address the post you addressed to me. First, "anti-hypnotherapist" is a very misleading term if indeed you mean "someone who rants on that stage hypnosis should be banned completely." It sounds like it is meant to mean someone who is against hypnotherapy, not hyp acts (thank you Bob). Someone who believes stage hypnosis should be banned would be considered "anti-stage hypnosis." Very confusing.

As for hypnotherapists who do object to stage hypnosis, my experience with those who've shared their objections with me, is that it is because they see it as potentially harmful and trivializing something that is meant to be used for healing. I've never gotten the sense that they envy the skill or attention of a stage hypnotist (though I'm sure there are some who do), only that they don't believe hypnosis should be used this way in the first place. By the way, I don't necessarily agree with this stance. I see the hyp act and therapuetic hypnosis as two different things entirely. At least they should be.

Brian, not to put you down in any way, but the amount of money you make or the fact that people approach you after shows is not germane to this discussion. Nor do these facts and your certifications offer any assurance whatsoever that your, "theraputic skills are higher than many if not most of the local hypnotherapists." Also, offering to share your testimonials is not going to shore up your "incidental" (I believe you meant "anecdotal") stories, but merely let me know how you are percieved as a stage hypnotist. Again, this isn't what is important in this thread.

Finally, I agree with every other thing you said in the post I'm referencing except one comment, "However getting the thread pulled because of the dangers etc is a bit to much." Perhaps you misunderstood. I didn't mean that the post should be pulled because stage hypnosis is dangerous. I said this because of all the advice to Amir, who it has been pointed out by both Bob and myself said he has NO experience in hypnosis of any kind, suggesting that a three day course will be sufficient training to do a hyp act. This is what I saw as irresponsible.

And it seems like several people, including you (which enhances my respect for you all the more) agree with this point. The same goes for those who saw what I was saying as an attack on Geoff Ronning; that is not what this is about at all. Jlibby, that is why no one is objecting to Valley and McGill. One more time, it is about the negligent advice to Amir. The NEGLIGENT advice, not all of the advice. In the beginning, a great deal of the advice was negligent in my opinion, given Amir's level, or lack thereof, of experience with hypnosis. I like how Dr. Omni put it, "I think you have to look on a three-day seminar as merely one part of that process of development." Dr. O, thank you for expressing this so succintly. I suspect you are an excellent communicator.

I hope between the efforts of Lee, myself, Bob, Martin, Shrink, JLibby and Dr. Omni, that this thread is now more balanced. It seems to me that this is the case and I no longer am as concerned as I was before, nor do I feel the thread needs to be pulled. Good work, gentleman.

Bill

Bill, I appreciate your clarification. I misinterpreted your concerns, and for that I apologize.

See ya!
Joe L.

I just wanted ask a simple question, but it seems like I started a war.

First of all, I plan to attend Mr. Ronning's training because I believe it will be a good investment. I know that his seminar will teach me a lot about hypnosis, even if I don't have any prior training. But it wouldn't be the end of my training.

Four years ago I didn't know jack**** about magic! Absolutely Nothing! I didn't know what a double lift was, what a break was, who Dai Vernon was or anything else. But today I have learned a lot and I have a lot more experience. So what I am saying is that nobody is born a magician, a hypnotist, a musician, a doctor, a lawyer or whatever else. People have to learn these skills; everyone has to start somewhere. David Copperfield had to start somewhere, Seigfried and Roy, Lance Burton, Joel Bauer, Paul Daniels, Russ Peak, Banachek, and everyone else. They all had to get their feet wet.

Also, I am not saying that I am going to go get this training and book huge shows and start making a large of money in my first year, that isn't realistic. But I will attempt to do as many shows I can handle. Yes, I can buy a lot of more books, videos, and CDs on hypnosis (and I will buy what I need to learn) but if I buy all these things I will actually feel like I will never be ready and will always feel like I need more knowledge, then I will never actually take action and go out there and perform. I will always be waiting for my act or show to "be perfect" (that is so unrealistic, nothing in life is perfect) rather then have it be just good enough to perform.

By the way the Internet is a great tool for us magicians. Chat rooms like this allows entertainers all around the world to share information and help each other out. This wasn't possible 10 or 15 years ago. But to me it seems like sometimes that the pros (Now I am not saying that this is everyone or all the pros, I lot of them do give really good information, I am just talking a very select few) are scared of the up and coming people who want to turn pro or semi-pro so they try to give them advice that scares them of not going pro. I actually had someone tell me that one time, (it wasn't someone on this board, it was a pro I met in person). He said going pro or semi-pro is hard, you are not good enough and never will be. (He was a jerk, and I actually think he was jealous of me for some reason). I know going pro will be really hard, because you are running your own business. It is extremely challenging to start your own business of any kind. It you will fail a lot more then you will succeed, but you will be doing something that most people are afraid to do. (7/10 people want to start their own business but are scared too.)

So I just wanted to say that thanks for all the advice you guys are giving me, but I have to go out there and do this stuff myself, experience it myself and yes I will probably fail a lot in the start, but I will get back up, learn from my mistakes and go at it again. That is how life works, you have to go out there get the knowledge, take action, and be persistence, that is the secret to success in anything!

Amir:

Great Fireworks display. Sorry our answers were so frustrating.

1) You didn't start a war. This was a Mommy and Daddy squabble over what was best for junior. After Mommy and Daddy finish squabbling, what comes out is a balanced view. What you call a war was actually very good and what I would like to see more of on this forum. A free fall of positions that disseminates information that we can all benefit from.

2) You will learn a lot from Ronning in his seminar. But all of the free stuff has a real slant toward getting you to buy his seminar. I have been to three day seminars and you leave more behind than you take with you. That is why you should get his Home Study Course now so that you have the three day seminar to attend over and over and over and over and over. Sorry, it was for emphasis. You cannot absorb and retain everything you need to know to be a Stage Hypnotist in 3 days no matter how good the trainer is.

3) You will never finish learning. You will need to get more than just one trainer's viewpoint. There is a lot of information available and yes it can seem overwhelming. This is not like when you learned magic, it is a lot more like the Lawyer or Doctor. You won't generally do any damage to anyone by doing a bad false shuffle (unless you're doing some cards as weapons moves). However, if you don't know what you are doing as a stage hypnotist you could injure someone.

4) I don't think the pro was jealous of you. I think his ploy probably worked. You were given the necessary kick in the pants to say I'll show you, and you did. It is far too easy to just say they don't want you to give them competition but what they really want is good quality competition. Not some hacker making it bad for everyone else.

Well I wish you luck. I've got 600 pages of the New Encyclopedia of Hypnotism to read. Then I need to memorize the Modified Dave Elman induction I got from Mike Lee. Then I need to work at tweaking my Pre-Talk so they really are hyped up and want to come volunteer. Then I need to work on my suggestion phrasing for my really funny routines that will make my show a hilarious hit. Then I'll have to work on collecting and building my marketing list for getting bookings for my show. I also have to squeeze in some time to record my CD for back of room sales. I sure am glad I've collected the information to help me do all these various tasks.

I think you get the idea. It's more than I want to be a Stage Hypnotist. A lot more. We're here if you need more imput.

Bill:

Yes I agree my term "ant-hypnotherapist" is confusing. I could ahve written hypnotherapists who are anti-stage hypnotists. But hey I'm getting lazy with posts, especially on a Saturday night!

My experience with Hypnotherapists is that they claim that hypnosis is just for healing but, when you get them privately you find that their objections crumble. Not only that many actually admire what you do(they wouldn't admit this publicly). Again this is just my experience but one of the reasons they so violently oppose (apart from envy) is because they want to distance themselves from the negative publicity and attention stage hypnosis gets in this country from a few Medical Doctors. Also the associations they belong to have the same abreactions towards stage hypnosis because of the above reasons.

Talking about testimonials they were not for shows but trainings and personal breakthough sessions (kind of a cross between therapy and coaching). I don't do stage hypnosis shows anymore. And yes you will find the majority of local Hypnotherapists have very basic skills they appear in yellow pages for a year then disappear.

And past money made, was only to suggest when it come to creating a professional or commercial stage show I know what I am talking about.

I guess also the idea of pulling the thread pressed some of my old buttons associated with "anti-hypnotherapists" (hypnotherpapist who are anti-stagehypnotists)....



Now I'm gonna relax in a dark room...and thanks for the gramerr leson.

Magicman02-

You didn't start a war - I think it was one of the better discussion threads I've ever seen - nobody flamed and no one got flamed out. We actually managed to have a fairly intelligent and and somewhat in depth discussion. And someone of us learned more about each other and made new friends in the process. What more could you ask for?

Your last post showed a depth of thinking and maturity about the matter that shows you may well have what it takes to achieve your goals. And, as Martin notes, there are those who will help when the seeker is sincere in his quest, as I now believe you to be. I mean, look at me, thirty-five years ago I, too, didn't know jack s***t about anything. Now I know jack s***t about about most everything!

Best=

Bob Cassidy

The Power Fiddling Course really has me intrigued. I've booked myself in Carnegie Hall in January, and I'm thinking it might be a good idea to learn how to play that darned violin now

Seriously, I know several successful stage hypnotists who learned in these short courses. I'm sure that they probably studied well beyond the initial course, but clearly there is a place for these kinds of programs. I also know one very successful performer who booked his first shows before having taken the class. I don't recommend it, but it did work for him.

As to the question of "why isn't everybody doing it?"--Basically, they are. This has been the case for several years now. In my opinion, the market is fairly close to saturation.

For those of you considering hypnosis, do not fall into the trap of thinking of it as your automatic ticket to the big time. If you apply yourself and have talent I am sure you can still do well, but it will take work, just like any other branch of showbiz. I hear people all the time who say "Once I learn hypnotism, I'll get my stuff to the agents and start working the college market heavily." I can promise you that the agents in that field have a stack of materials several feet high from all the hypnotist feeding the same delusion. I also hear people say "but I can make so much more at hypnosis than I can at magic." There is some truth to this, although as more and more people start doing hypnosis (and the numbers are legion already) there will be downward pressure on the prices you can get. Still, what that statment tells me most is that the speaker needs to rethink the way he or she markets his magic.

I am not trying to discourage anybody from learning hypnosis. It's a great thing, and I think the study of it can help performers in other areas besides just doing hyp shows. It's just that every few years a new bandwagon comes along that magicians hop aboard, often thinking "If I only could do this show, or work this venue, I could make it as a pro." I've seen this happen with cruise ships, trade shows, and theme park shows. The unfortunate thing is that by the time most magicians hop on the bandwagon the market is already saturated and they're no longer a novelty. Right now hypnosis is that bandwagon. Some who try it will make it, but it will be a very small minority. Sorry, but that's the way showbiz works.

The very best reason to learn hypnosis, in my opinion, is because you want to find out if it's the right fit for you. Most people I know who achieve real success do so in large measure because their performance is an extention of who they are as a human being. Learning to express yourself as an artist is generally a better approach than following the latest trend, although both approaches have their merits.

--Chris

Hi Chris:

I agree with you from the standpoint of what you are saying, there is probably alot of people getting on the hypnosis bandwagon. But it is still a big leap from doing the training to jumping out there and actually doing the show. I see the high numbers of those doing the training as with any other group. Lot's of people have bought those late night make it rich in real estate courese spending much the same investment as these training courses. Yet you can go on ebay and pick them up for cheap or find them collecting dust on shelves.

For every 1000 magicians saying pick a card, very few are out there really performing and making money. I don't see the deluge of new hypnotists as being any different. The training we don't have to be concerned about, its the ones who actually do something about it. As far as saturation is concerned, that is quickly taken care of on its own. As in all entertainment, it is the performer that sets themselves apart from the pack that survive. All the little cookie cutter hypnotists will soon be weeded down to those that have either customized their shows so they are different or will go the way of Edsel.

So practice your show as you practiced your magic to perfection and go out and knock them dead. Or go have someone pick another card and forget about it. The market will bear no less than that from you if you want to survive long term.

Martin,

I think we're saying basically the same things.

--Chris

Chris: I almost get dejavu reading your last post. that's exactly how things were here in the mid 90s. Sadly it ruined the market. Hypnosis has always been cyclic in nature and my guess is it will eventually fold in the US to. At least for some years.

Part of it is the eagerness of some to cash in on the fad as much as possible by marketing as many training courses as possible. Some things in my opinion should not be commercially marketed stage hypnosis being one of them. Making secrets readily available is against its primary appeal, being mysterious.

Over here it wasn't so much as magicians but failed club comedians that jumped on the band wagon.

Part of being successful is having a business attitude and placing yourself in key venues before someone else does. Forget agents they will put you in the worst venues for little cash they don't care as long as they make a few pounds. (at least where I live).

Another part of being successful is TIMING. I could see the wave of hypnosis popularuty coming before it actualy got big. I rode the wave and made good cash from it. Now in my opinion by the sheer numbers of people interested in hypnosis the wave has gone. You will find it very dificult to make serious money now. I might be wrong but the market has probably peaked or near as. It will soon spiral downwards.

You need to find theatres in the middle of town with plenty passing traffic. Not to big that you need 500 just to break even. But big enough to make really good cash if you get it half full. I had venue with nearly 1000 seats. I had long stays there filling it out week after week. I needed an agent to help me replicate this all over the country but couldn't find one.

From this one venue I got TV interviews bookings on the University circuit. I was charging double what other hypnotists were for this circuit.

I don't know what it is like in the US but over here a hypnotist was a hypnotist. When being booked clubs that's all they asked for they didn't make any distinctions. I did have a name for myself back then. But allthe influx of cheap hypnotists willing to work for nothing doing bad jobs muddied the water for the few who really knew what they were doing both entertainment wise and business wise.

I feel the US market will go the same.

The Ronning Training is being marketed to DJ's so the same will probably result in taht direction. The real threat is the idiot who doesn't follow current pricing and gets in saying it pays more than my day job. Doing shows for $200 or $300 in the cheap range would be saying hey I make $300 an hour. This also shows lack of understanding of basic accounting which is where these cheap idiots come from. You have to factor in your marketing costs. The amount of time getting ready for and traveling to show and your time spent trying to land those shows after the marketing worked.

In the states there are still lots of sub markets and we don't have to go to the trouble of getting licenses and permissions for our show. What I don't understand, Shrink is with all the laws over there regarding Stage Hypnosis, how did all the cookie cutter cheap hypnotists get in in the first place.

We have a local fair here in East Texas that has had the same Hypnotist back for 17 straight years with standing room audiences at each performance. I just don't see the coming collapse on the horizon. And even in the collapsed UK market McKenna still seems to be keeping his own. There will always be Hypnotists and shack outs of the not so good are always a good thing in any tpye of market. IMHO.

You maybe right perhaps the US is different to the UK for one thing its a lot bigger.

The laws and situation in the UK is only a recent one. The biggest problem is the insurance. At one time no one even bothered about the license even the police didn't really care. It wasn't until the problems started with the sheer numbers of hypnotists causing damage and attracting a lot of negative publicity. I was almost treated as a rock star in my town. Almost over night I was treated like some kind of pervert or serial killer after the press really went to town.

To be honest I think the time is now right for a come back. However its the insurance position that now is the problem in the UK. I beleive I f I could get that sorted out I would make a decent living until the hacks realised what was happening and once again jumped on the wagon.

What you say about Mckenna is true but he has positioned himself in a key position. Mckenna had the advantage of being a high profile DJ with all the contacts when he got into hypnosis and his famous TV show. I don't know where he gets his insurance but I have heard its astronomical figures. In other words you need to be doing a lot of big shows in order to make it pay. You need money and you need contacts to set that up.

Either way if the market does collapse in the US only one or two very established acts will make it through. Again the US may be different but most businesses have a shelf life with products. And when everyone is running towards something its not the best time to get in. Its usually to late to take the cream. And you are right its the idiots who will kill the market.