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PhilDean
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On 2013-08-28 01:25, Mindpro wrote:
Not my rules but the point that the audience was confused and didn't know what to think or believe. Yes, some very good performers can perform both and pull it off well, but not everyone. To me it was an example of the performer thinking and performing form their own perspective and not the audience.

Plus as I have always contended, not everyone can convincingly pull off mentalism.


I'd love to know how you're getting this impression from the audience. Are we even talking about the same bit with the Twitter prediction? I didn't see any of the judges recoil in horror, they acted with appropriate amazement, especially Heidi Klum who seemed quite baffled by it. Are you a real mindreader and were you reading the judges minds at the time? I watched it and have to say it seemed fine for a young guy having a go on a talent show. It's unfair and with respect a little bit !@#$%y to go on an internet forum criticizing things like audience reaction 'she didn't know if it were real or not ZOMG - good reaction if you ask me' when the reality is there was nothing wrong with the bit. Was it what you would've done? Probably not, but you're not the one on TV trying to challenge yourself, are you?

I love the comment before saying 'no serious mentalist would go on a show like this'. Oh really? What would you do then, starve while wowing the two old blokes down at your local with your NW every night? He's trying to use a contemporary entertainment medium to get ahead. He may not be the greatest magician in the world but most of you sound like bitter old women. Oh no! He's mixing magic and mentalism! Call the police! No one seemed to complain when Derren Brown was doing the very same thing...
G. Batson
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On 2013-08-28 22:27, PhilDean wrote:
He's trying to use a contemporary entertainment medium to get ahead. He may not be the greatest magician in the world but most of you sound like bitter old women. Oh no! He's mixing magic and mentalism! Call the police! No one seemed to complain when Derren Brown was doing the very same thing...

Well said. The fans that voted him through, again, surely didn't give a single thought to whether he was a magician doing mentalism
PhilDean
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On 2013-08-28 23:00, G. Batson wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-28 22:27, PhilDean wrote:
He's trying to use a contemporary entertainment medium to get ahead. He may not be the greatest magician in the world but most of you sound like bitter old women. Oh no! He's mixing magic and mentalism! Call the police! No one seemed to complain when Derren Brown was doing the very same thing...

Well said. The fans that voted him through, again, surely didn't give a single thought to whether he was a magician doing mentalism


Well, this is exactly the point. He seems likeable, he gets a nice reaction from the fans (and probably some of the younger ladies as well) and you're right. They don't give a rats whether he's doing magic, mentalism or thimble prestidigitation, it's just the people here. Some Café folk act like if you don't leave the spectator in a blubbering, catatonic state of emotional disbelief then you're somehow not doing your job? I blame that scamp Peter Turner!!! (Just jokes Pete - lol). Collins' doing feel-good Copperfield style stage magic (or mental magic or mentalism pending on how you want to label it). Let him be already and lets start supporting those who are getting out there having a go!
Mindpro
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On 2013-08-28 22:27, PhilDean wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-28 01:25, Mindpro wrote:
Not my rules but the point that the audience was confused and didn't know what to think or believe. Yes, some very good performers can perform both and pull it off well, but not everyone. To me it was an example of the performer thinking and performing form their own perspective and not the audience.

Plus as I have always contended, not everyone can convincingly pull off mentalism.

Are we even talking about the same bit with the Twitter prediction? Are you a real mindreader and were you reading the judges minds at the time? I watched it and have to say it seemed fine for a young guy having a go on a talent show. It's unfair and with respect a little bit !@#$%y to go on an internet forum criticizing things like audience reaction 'she didn't know if it were real or not ZOMG


Those were the judges words, not mine. One said they were confused and another said "I know know if that was supposed to be real or not". Perhaps your not talking about the same performance.
quicknotist
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Rich Ferguson does seem to be acting as his creative consultant:
http://www.richferguson.blogspot.co.nz/2......ent.html

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On 2013-08-28 03:55, magicman29 wrote:
I didn't see the performance but did that ***** "rich ferguson" have something to do with it?. He seems to be posting all over Facebook about AGT.

Kieran
Martin Pulman
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I love the comment before saying 'no serious mentalist would go on a show like this'. Oh really? What would you do then, starve while wowing the two old blokes down at your local with your NW every night? He's trying to use a contemporary entertainment medium to get ahead. He may not be the greatest magician in the world but most of you sound like bitter old women.


I'm glad you loved my comment Phil, but if you are going to quote me please do so accurately.

I wrote "no one who is serious about the art of mentalism would touch these amateur talent shows with a barge pole." I don't doubt there are endless amounts of people who are serious about becoming famous who would go on these shows. I don't doubt there are endless amounts of people who are serious about making money who would go on these shows. But if you truly loved mentalism and admired the art itself, rather than yourself in the art, you would not debase it by trying to cram a shop-bought effect into 90 seconds in the hope that Mel B would deign to announce you a better entertainer than a dancing dog.

But hey, some of us fell in love with the art before mentalism was the trendy thing it is today with how-to books on supermarket shelves and nine year olds posting exposure vids on the internet. I guess in the brave new world of mentalism - anything goes.
mindpunisher
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A mind reading dancing dog would win.....
Mark_Chandaue
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As far as mentalism on talent shows is concerned I'm not convinced that you can adequately showcase a mentalist in the time these shows allow. Might be able to get some exposure but I think it would be a pretty safe prediction that a mentalist isn't going to win AGT or BGT.

As far as Collins Key is concerned its worth remembering that he's only 17 years old with very little real performing experience and it takes some balls to go in front of such a large audience with millions watching at home. I couldn't have done it at 17 and I'm sure not many of us on here could so I say good luck to him, this experience will teach him a lot and set him up for a decent career.

Mark
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Munseys_Magic
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I think Collins' biggest strength is his wisdom in using social media to get fans to vote for him. He's a great self-promoter, and I truly think that's what allowed him to get the votes after that rather poor performance with the four f**** bags.
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Martin Pulman
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On 2013-08-29 07:17, Munseys_Magic wrote:
I think Collins' biggest strength is his wisdom in using social media to get fans to vote for him. He's a great self-promoter


Exactly. And yet we have people on here cheering him on, as if a desire to be famous and "get ahead" via mentalism is something to be applauded, regardless of the talent of the individual involved. His every performance is reducing our fine art to a tawdry children's variety turn.

Give it a few more years of people like him and mentalism will have the same respect and intellectual cachet as a balloon animal act.
Mindpro
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It's so amazing to me that people here do not get this. Then they always resort to the same lame mentality of "while at least he's on t.v. and what have you done?"

First, that's not the point at all. It has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Secondly many of us here have done national television, and earned it by or skill, talent and appreciation of the art, not by his ability with social media. This was one of my original points - there is no appreciation, understanding or respect for the art of mentalism. It's all magician's perspective and thinking - approaching mentalism as if it is just another add-on trick of magic - "I think I'll do a card trick, something with coins, something with ropes, and some mentalism".

I believe Martin is correct. The new progression is balloon animals then mentalism. In reality I think these guys are spending more time on working with their balloons than they are with mentalism.
Mark_Chandaue
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I don't entirely agree with this concept of trivialising the art, as far back as I can remember there have been bad performers and even terrible performers and magicians such as Copperfield, Doug Henning, David Nixon, Paul Daniels, David Blaine and Dynamo have been mixing magic and mentalism on our TV screens for decades. Yet Derren Brown still sells out every show. The magicians performing mentalism back then had no impact on Uri Geller any more than Dynamo has on Derren Brown. For that matter Derren Browns own mixing of magic and mentalism seems to have not hurt his credibility or popularity with the general public.

A performer will alwys be judged on his own performance and the credibility he generates with that performance. The public has always been aware that ESP, PK, clairvoyance etc can be faked and they neither need magicians doing mental effects or poor mentalists to tell them this. They will continue to make their mind up whether somebody, is the real deal or a clever trickster based on how convincing the persons performance is just as they always have done.

Collins Key will either be a flash in the pan or will go on to have a successful career based on how much he learns from this experience and his ability to utilise that experience gained to grow and improve as a performer. Any impact he has on the art of mentalism will not be related to his performances on a talent show where the public only remember the winners. How many here can name the 3rd and 4th places artists in last years series without the aid of google?

Mark
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PhilDean
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As I previously said. Bitter old women...
Mindpro
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Great contribution Phil moving this thread forward, thanks we all appreciate it.
Synesthesia
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His every performance is reducing our fine art to a tawdry children's variety turn.

Give it a few more years of people like him and mentalism will have the same respect and intellectual cachet as a balloon animal act.


Is that really true, though? Is brilliant music any less brilliant because shallow music exists?

If a mediocre mentalist really did spark enough widespread interest in the art to start defining the public perception of it, I think that would just create more opportunities for better mentalists to get in front of bigger audiences and show 'em what real mentalism looks like.
Martin Pulman
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On 2013-09-05 00:39, Synesthesia wrote:
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His every performance is reducing our fine art to a tawdry children's variety turn.

Give it a few more years of people like him and mentalism will have the same respect and intellectual cachet as a balloon animal act.


Is that really true, though? Is brilliant music any less brilliant because shallow music exists?



Well, that depends. The public are exposed to all forms of music on television and radio; trivial and serious. If an audience's only exposure to mentalism is teenagers cramming effects into 90 seconds on amateur talent shows or table-hopping magicians throwing in a bit of mentalism between the cups and balls then they will perceive mentalism ITSELF as a trivial art.

No doubt I'm in a minority of people here with my old fashioned views. I believe mentalism should ideally be performed by more mature performers. It really belongs on stage or parlour or intimate close up. If it is something that teenagers are performing on the street and uploading to youtube, the vital mystique and mystery, and most importantly, credibility, is removed.

We were fortunate in the UK that mentalism was associated with Derren Brown. His style of presentation gave the art form credibility and made being a mentalist "cool". Sadly (inevitably)that led to a wave of copy cat acts, leading to the low point of Colin McLeod exposing himself on an amateur talent show. I doubt that mentalism could survive as a serious art form if such a performance became the norm on TV.
Michael Zarek
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As far as I know , magicians who do mentalism "tricks" , don't tend to call it mentalism, so there can't really be a association between the two.
If they were to later that day find a mentalist who after being asked what he performs would say mentalism, they would probably respond: What's mentalism?
After which he would just read their mind (with a good presentation of course) and they will find it fascinating and probably real.
And if they do call it mentalism, than what? It's the same as if a magician were to tell you that he's gonna show off his psychic powers, you won't call every psychic a fraud becouse you saw a magic trick.
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Mindpro
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On 2013-09-05 04:55, stubbs360 wrote:
As far as I know, magicians who do mentalism "tricks" , don't tend to call it mentalism, so there can't really be a association between the two.


I disagree with this statement as all I've seen over the past few years are magicians doing some kind of magic tricks based on a mental theme or mental magic (usually poorly performed) and are referring it it and themselves as mentalists/mentalism.

The common belief of this current trend is mentalists get more respect and higher prices, so many magicians have jumped on the bandwagon. The same happened with hypnosis prior to this current wave.

It is this then what confuses audiences and in my opinion sends the wrong message.

I agree with Martin, anytime something is reduced to a street level it instantly loses credibility. If you saw a street corner or park with a "street surgeon" offering brain surgery or heart surgery, how much credibility would it have? If it became popular and more widespread it would confuse and affect the perception of brain surgeons. People would wonder who is credible and how is a hustler.
Martin Pulman
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Mindpro has nailed it. The proof of this is that the opposite phenomenon holds true. When Geller first came on the scene, his insistence that what he was doing was real, and the audience's desire to believe it, increased the credibility of mentalism in general. the audience were primed to believe. Similarly with Derren in the early days. He was initially sold to the public as performing something akin to scientific experiments. This greatly influenced the perception of both his work and, by extension mentalism.

Now people's perception of mentalism is in danger of being led by shiny eyed and shiny-toothed wannabes blandly performing shop bought effects on low rent TV shows. I think it is impossible for the art to play well in that arena. Even Colin McLeod, who is clearly a serious student of mentalism, felt compelled to compromise himself in order to grab the attention of the jaded celebrity panel. It was sad to see.
Michael Zarek
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On 2013-09-05 09:21, Mindpro wrote:

I agree with Martin, anytime something is reduced to a street level it instantly loses credibility. If you saw a street corner or park with a "street surgeon" offering brain surgery or heart surgery, how much credibility would it have? If it became popular and more widespread it would confuse and affect the perception of brain surgeons. People would wonder who is credible and how is a hustler.


hmm... I guess I have to agree with this. I myself don't have that big of a problem with it becouse I never say I'm a mentalist, altough I know that advising other's to do the same would be wrong becouse it's almost like playing into their hands.
And I still think that if a person were to see a real mentalist after seing the pseudo metalist they would know the diffrence, altough one obstacle created here might be that this person will not want to see another mentalist after seeing the magician, but it also applies to just bad mentalists, and you can't really ask someone to never perform becouse his not as good at the time.
One other thing I'll mention is from alchemical tools where Paul describes when he was performing with another mentalist and the audience voted who was better (those who read it will know what I'm talking about), with the second mentalist the audienc suspected he might just be doing tricks, but that didn't take anything away from Paul's performance.
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