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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Look into mindfullnes meditation.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Rook Special user I went to the Magic Cafe and all I got were these lousy 834 Posts |
My training is as a hypnotherapist, not a stage hypnotist (though I have some training in it, stage hypnosis is not my strength.)
A few things from my experience in having hypnotized many therapy clients in my practice over the last 8 years. -Most hypnotherapists are easier to hypnotize than people who are experiencing for the first time. This is because the more often you're hypnotized, the easier it becomes the next time around. As part of your training, you frequently experience hypnosis. -Hypnosis feels differently for each person. For example, many beginning hypnotherapists will hear the complaint from their clients that "I heard everything you said!" Hypnosis is not deafness. About half experience the classic "You are getting sleepy....very sleepy" kind of response, whereas the other half feel more in control, which brings up the next point. -What the heck is hypnosis anyway? I often tell my clientele that if you as 10 different hypnotherapists what hypnosis actually is, you'll likely get more than 10 answers. There is one common thread in each definition, however, that I feel is most crucial, and that is: A heightened suggestibility. You need not be relaxed in order to be suggestible. Indeed, my anxiety clients have often been the most responsive. -A common mantra was also reflected in this thread: "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. The hypnotherapist is a guide." I'm not entirely certain if that's true, but it is a workable model. -Tom
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.
-Roald Dahl |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Not trying to cause an argument if anything tying to move away from one.
You may be "hypnotized" if deep relaxation is used...you will certainly be in trance of some kind.. what is hypnosis anyway? We argue all day long about research for against etc....but at end of the day its just a set of tools to get a set of results. In general people tend to be more suggestive when relaxed, focused inward/ or fixated on an object or experiencing intense emotion.... That all comes within the "envelop" called hypnosis for us to take advantage of. if you think about our ability to pace then lead the imagination to get the results we are looking for then "hypnosis" becomes a lot more flexible and applicable to many different applications. Break free from rigid traditional thinking of what hypnosis or not and focus on what you want to create with it. Quote: On 2013-09-04 19:59, dmkraig wrote: |
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Rook Special user I went to the Magic Cafe and all I got were these lousy 834 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 05:23, mindpunisher wrote: Agreed. Since I typically work with people who come into my office with "I can't be hypnotized because I can't relax," I go into an explanation that hypnosis may be independent of relaxation (though it doesn't have to be). Once "down," I give them relaxation suggestions. Quote:
Break free from rigid traditional thinking of what hypnosis or not and focus on what you want to create with it. I think I agree here in spirit. My only problem is that I've had a hard time determining what the "traditional" notion of hypnosis is in the first place. Ericson's definition? How about Mesmer's? Kappas'? Listening to folks debate this often leaves me with the feeling of watching folks argue about the quantity of angels dancing on pin heads. I'm all for developing a workable model, keeping in mind that it's only that. -Tom
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.
-Roald Dahl |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 10:14, Dr_V wrote: This is why it is in the rules of the forum that this is not to be discussed or debated here. It is an entertainment forum. |
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Rook Special user I went to the Magic Cafe and all I got were these lousy 834 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 11:36, Mindpro wrote: Fair enough. -Tom
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it.
-Roald Dahl |
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kevinuncanny Loyal user 264 Posts |
I don't mean this in anyway that says "I take on challenges" or the I am "powerful enought to make them hypnotized" or any of that ego push. What I want to say is that I have people who volunteer in my show who tell me before hand that they know they can't be hypnotized but they promised someone they wold give it a shot. Those people more times then not are the ones that go the deepest.
I believe it is because they don't think they can be so they don't care enough to try to over think it. They do what I say and next thing they know they're taking a curtian call!
Kevin Lepine
Hypnosis Unleashed-THE Vegas Hypnosis Show www.Kevinlepine.com www.VegasHypnosisShow.com |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 10:14, Dr_V wrote: All the above models are traditional forget them you don't need them. They are all rigid created within a specific context...... There are other "schools of thought too". "hypnosis" or the process can be applied to so many things for so many results if you move beyond these restrictions. You don't need any of the above for good stage work. you don't need any background in research either you just need to know how to use the tools and what comes up in front of you. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-05 16:04, kevinuncanny wrote: I guess that is one perspective, but more times than not if they don't want to participate willingly, and have already convinced themselves they don't want to allow themselves to be hypnotized or won't be, or are determined to challenge you or resist, I get them off my stage immediately (if I can help it they won't even be invited up). This rarely is good for a performance. There is a difference between this and the typical person that thinks they're "above being hypnotized" BUT ARE WILLING TO BE OPEN-MINDED AND WILL PROPERLY TRY AND ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITIES. Two very different things. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I had a test I used to use on stage. I would stand behind someone with their back against my chest. I would pull back their heads if I felt tension in their necks and a stiffness of the body I would throw them back. That told me they were resisting and fighting me. People who used to work for me were amazed that I seemed to have a "sixth sense" because they had seen these volunteers make faces behind my back yet I got rid of them very fast and they didn't know how I did it.
That was the method. I agree with mindpro generally speaking those that say they are bad or can't be hypnotized usually make the worst volunteers even if they do become hypnotized. |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
A good lesson here is NOT to put forward one's opinion based on ones' OWN hypnotizability.
ie: If I stick needled through someone's arms and cheeks they're most probably NOT just going along with me. If they can't pick up the £500 they're again probably NOT going along with me. And I'd agree that many great hypnotists are fantastic hypnotic subjects. AND it can change (as claimed above). I was never a good subject but now I have become a GREAT hypnotic subject. And I'm NOT just going along with it. So the jury came back in a long time ago: It's real for those who either have the inherent ability or if you like: possess a large rostrum within their corpus callosum (read the work of James Horton 2003)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Now this is going to turn into a rostrum measuring contest.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
You've been feeling the bumps on your head again bob.. Big bumps by the sounds of it..
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Bobser,
You quoted The Rostrum study above - which suggests good hypnotees have a special brain architecture. You also suggested that people can become good subjects, suggesting it is a skill that is learnt. How do you square these two statements? Do they need a special brain plus training? Assuming you have read the Rostrum paper - What do you think of the sample size and p value? Are you aware if it has ever been repeated? Are you aware that those who ran the study wrote a chapter in 'The Highly Hypnotizable Person' and failed to mention their own study? You may be interested to hear Barry Thain speak about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=catZ_vFzs6Q The jury is definitely still out on what creates a good hypnotee.
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
A good hypnotee is someone who does what you tell them? That's what makes them good or am I missing something? And that's only useful for stage. Otherwise there are no good hypnotees only good hypnotists who don't need "good hypnotees".
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
You are missing something.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. If you think a good hypnotee is purely someone who is 'does what you tell them' then I guess you believe it is just a social phenomenon - an act of doing or pretending. I do not think that accounts for the classic suggestion effect - a sense of involuntariness. It also does not account for the amount of times you use the word 'trance'. It is hard to tell if you and Bobser prefer sitting on the fence or not knowing what side of it you are on. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
If they go into an "act of involuntariness" whatever your preference call it then they have done what I have asked them to do on stage. If they don't or just play along with it I won't get the effect I am looking for so they haven't done what I have told them to do. Some people just do it when I ask them that's all I need to know as a stage hypnotist.
Trance as I use the term is not necessary a state of "involuntariness" although that may be one type of trance. Of course I am assuming that I understand what you mean by the term involuntariness. Personally I believe hypnosis exists and that stage is a good example of someone being rendered or conditioned into a highly suggestible state or state of "involuntariness". Although you may tell me involuntariness is something different I don't know? But its a good outward physical example. A convincer for me at least as is some of the phenomena especially amnesia. ( proper long term amnesia sometimes for the whole evening) We all have the differing views and opinions and arguments as to what hypnosis is or if it even exists so finally I have come to the conclusion for me at least to simplify things by not getting into these arguments. Instead I am much more interested in finding out what can be done or achieved with "hypnosis". I believe that direction of focus is a lot more useful and productive. Unlike stage work or street that focus on outward physical very visible examples of the impact of structured suggestion ritual etc....other uses such as performance enhancement or even therapy get the best results from very minimum subtle inward changes that don't require the usual above phenomena etc. The existence is measured in the end result or change. That's just my view/approach. I am willing to accept that sitting on a fence gives you a good all round view of what hypnosis "might be" without getting bogged down too much with detail.There may be some truth to all points of view much of it depending upon the words, experience and filters used by each camp. Maybe everyone is trying to describe an elephant in the dark.. |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
I think you are either missing something Anthony or being slightly unfair to me (Of course there is a chance I did NOT explaon myself fully)as I am never a fence sitter.
I have read SOME of The Rostrum Paper (before handing it to my wife) but to be honest I could NOT find a strong motivation to do so as I understand completely how certain tests are shall we say, often strengthened by the initial belief of the tester. AND I realised a third of the way through that nothing was going to be REVEALED to me or anyone else, but rather we were being asked to accept the work as fact. Something I knew I would NOT be able to do, as (nearly) ALL my beliefs are based on MY findings in MY therapy room. Barry Thain's talk was of course a constructed formula based on 4 stages/sizes of said Rostrum and was, I feel,, delivered slightly tongue in cheek. I do believe that Barry Thain would very easily rip apart Barry Thain's delivery that day (this IS meant as a complement by the way as I have full respect for him). To put a full stop on the above I have no evidence, nor have I witnessed any that The Rostrum Report has any merit. If so I'd simply buy a measuring kit, stick on people's heads and decide whether to do: relaxatherapy, psychotherapy, hypnotherapy or clinical hypnosis (I think I'm quoting Barry correctly?) which in a large rostrum would be to say: "Stop it!" BUT I DO believe that an individual can indeed 'learn the skill' (I'm extremely happy to accept a different wording). And I'd like anyone to understand that I am NOT GIVING MY OPINION here. As you will know Anthony the great thing about having a full time therapy practice is that you get to put the books back on the shelve and write your own? In other words you get to EXPERIENCE wats true or not.Or what works or not. SO... rather than give my opinion I simply REPORT my findings (from a multiplicity of REAL events), which of course are absolutely open to be challenged at any time as I DO miss things. And here I have to confess that I have NO FINDINGS on The Rostrum thingy but STRONG EMPIRICAL FInDINGS on people developing skills on trance/hypnosis, which I myself simply can never deny.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Bob,
You are suggesting people read a paper you have not even read yourself. Why? Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-09-15 03:30, Anthony Jacquin wrote: And for that we should all be grateful. Think about it. The day someone states "It has been proven beyond doubt that if you can do X, Y and Z or if you have physical traits A and B, then there is 100% certainty you will be an excellent hypnotic subject" will be a very sad day for hypnosis entertainment. A huge part of hypnotism's appeal for both performer and audience will be gone forever. |
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