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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
Hi guys, I'm interested in getting a Kollosal Killer type effect and I could do with some advice on which one to get.
Obviously the original KK is in contention as is Paul Harris's effect 'One and Only' but 'Heirloom' by the Underground Collective also seems to be well regarded, and I'm open to other variations. I want to play this as mentalism, rather than a card stunt, which is why I didn't post this in the Card section. My intention is to use it as a precursor to Pre-deck-ability, which I love. It would be in a kind of throw away context, "I could influence you to name a playing card, but that's just too easy. Name a card? <Reveal selection> See? Just too easy". It has to be short and completely inexplicable, so that they're prepared to invest the time into pre-deck-ability, which should then floor them. A bit of patter is okay as long as it's appropriate to the main effect. It has to be pretty hands off, like pre-deck-ability but it should also make women go weak at the knees with desire when they see it. Okay, perhaps that last bit is asking a bit much. Suggestions? |
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shrink Inner circle 2609 Posts |
I don't know about pre-deck-ability but KK on its own is great. I haven't seen the new heirloom. But my feeling is if you want pure mentalism go for something that is not contrived. Heirloom to me is contrived either way it’s a "special prop". A card is just a card.
I sometimes use KK as a test of suggestibility. I ask three people to stand and explain I need someone who is on the same wavelength as I am because it’s really important for my next effect. I suggest that I sense it will be one of the three. If I can use him I pull out that option. It makes it look like I not only can influence minds I can actually direct that influence to a specific person. If it works out not to be him but one of the others then the impact is only lessened slightly. I then move on to an effect where I have five ordinary polystyrene cups. The spectator chosen before has to hide a £20 note under one of the cups. In order to win it all he has to do is to prevent me from finding it only once out of five tests. Body language, tonality of voice, logic then finally pure mind reading. Of course I never lose |
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Necromancer Inner circle Chicago 3076 Posts |
I am also unfamiliar with Pre-Deck-Ability. However, I would caution you against using KK as a throwaway. Done properly, it is devastating.
I don't have Paul Harris' new effect. However, I do have the original KK and the followup booklet, Killer Konceptions. I think that anybody who appreciates the principle should get both. Best, Neiil
Creator of The Xpert (20 PAGES of reviews!), Cut & Color, Hands-Off Multiple ESP (HOME) System, Rider-Waite Readers book, Zoom Pendulum ebook ...
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
Neil; It’s tricky to appreciate the principle before you buy the booklets, but thanks for the reply - I get the point. I guess I was shooting for the idea Henry Hay mentions in 'Learn Magic' where the opening effects are so inexplicable the audience gives up trying to figure things out. I wanted to gently unsettle the spectators, before ripping the rug out from under them with pre-deck-ability (which I'd detail, but you have to see it to really appreciate just how strong it is).
How does the proper performance of KK differ from the kind of short, sharp, shock I mentioned? Thanks for the comments Shrink, the card in the photograph idea has always screamed "FORCE" at me in a very shrill voice. Apparently there was an effect where a spectator names a time that matches a clock in the background of a photo. It does seem strange to have a photo of someone holding a card, whereas the incidental appearance of the clock adds a feeling of innocence the "special prop" lacks. |
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trickiewillie Regular user Virginia 128 Posts |
I do both Pre-Deck-Ability and KK, and I never thought of doing both together. With the right presentation both are strong in their own right. KK depends much more on presentation, while I think P-D-A can be strong even with a weak presentation. I've always thought of KK as a "serious" effect, and P-D-A as a lighter, but still stunning prediction. There are no actual cards involved in KK (although you can use them) while the whole effect of P-D-A requires shuffling and dealing and counting cards. I suppose you could do one after the other, but I wouldn't.
And, in case anyone is curious, P-D-A is an Aldo Columbini trick almost identical to Simon Aronson's Shuffle-Bored (a version of which was in "Magic" magazine 3 or 4 months ago. |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
The reason I thought of pairing them up is because they are both really hands off, in terms of the performer handling cards. And I find that P-D-A needs some kind of quick, but strong pre-cursor to assure people that the result will be worth the wait. It always is.
I've never considered playing PDA as anything but a serious and stunning display of influence which happens to involve a deck of cards. Which is why I don't want to pair it with something that implies I have any skill with cards. |
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Scott Cram Inner circle 2678 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-12-12 11:53, trickiewillie wrote: Pre-Deck-Ability is, as Aldo Colombini will be the first to admit, Shuffle-Bored. In Simon's original Shuffle-Bored manuscript, he downplays the idea of predicting things like the number of hearts, because that seemed too detailed and too perfect to him. (Read "Prediction Shuffle-Bored" in the book Bound To Please.) Pre-Deck-Ability really seemed to help change Simon Aronson's mind on the subject, because Aldo's brilliant inspiration was to use multiple predictions that built on each other by being more specific than the previous one. That concept, as trickiewillie points out, was used by Simon himself in a recent issue of MAGIC for "Random Sample Shuffle-Bored". |
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trickiewillie Regular user Virginia 128 Posts |
Thanks for the info, Scott. Ever since I learned of both effects I've been curious about the relationship betweeen them. There's so much "ripping off" in magic I wondered what the story is and whether there was "bad blood" between Aldo and Simon.
bootweasel - I guess the reason I think of PDA as a "light" effect (but definitely not lightweight) is that the first time I saw it, it was performed by Aldo. Everything he does is full of humor and fun, so his style colored my perception and presentation. And, for what it's worth, after a couple times when spectators screwed up the shuffling and/or "turning over" I have minimized their handling and do much of it myself. So it's not a hands-off effect for me. |
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SharkTrager New user North London 9 Posts |
I would totally agree that KK is not a throwaway effect. Yes you could do it quickly but it would lessen it so much that you may as well not use it.
It's one of those effects where the more you build up the impossibility the more impossible it appears. If you don't do any build up it will not seem as incredible. I would say that Heirloom is good but a version of KK with a backstory. It may not suit all styles but KK is just so pure and simple that it's worth treasuring. |
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jbadman Special user London 984 Posts |
Hi!
All I can say is, KK is a STUNNING effect - by Kenton Knepper. When we invented Heirloom, we gave a copy to Kenton. Guess what ? He uses Heirloom now. Can't get higher recommendation than that ;-) Jamie
http://www.underground-collective.com - check out our new DVD now!
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GReaper New user 58 Posts |
Heirloom is the way to go. It has to be the ultimate KK in existance, it is 100% examinable even if you are NOT O By O! Kenton is swapping to Heirloom, so am I!
Grim Reaper
Top Childrens Entertaner (CRB checked) (AKA Bob Stevens) |
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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
PDA is nice, and (Heirloom sounds like a nice take on it..."in your wallet you keep pictures....treasured memories of those loved ones..nice) but when KK is presented properly, PDA is an INTRO to KK, INHO. (wow...enough abbreviations there!?...lol)
For the money, do yourself a favor and buy Killer Konceptions....(and the original if you don't know it) because there is some GREAT thinking on alternatives / handlings in Konceptions. I combined some of my own ideas with the dollar bill i***x and it resulted in something so thin I would hardly know its there except for the fact that it is almost an everyday-worker for me. Bryn
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts |
Thanks everyone, points taken.
Judging from the effect description alone, I still believe that PDA is a better closer, I think that the multiple prediction gives a strong, satisfying, unfathomable climax that builds well. I'm still of the opinion that it needs prefacing with something short and powerful. Obviously from your enthusiasm I am going to have to invest in one of the KK family. I might have to shoehorn it into the act someplace else though, to give it the build up it deserves. I like the idea of Heirloom as it seems like less of a card trick. But this still leaves me with a couple of questions... Does anybody rate One and Only? If this is supposed to be a rework of KK and a combination of principles, why is the original a better purchase? Now that you've talked me out of using KK to introduce P-D-A, what the Dickens should I put with it? |
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts |
Can you go straight to Killer Konceptions, or do you need Kollosal Killer as well?
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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David Numen Inner circle 2070 Posts |
You will need Kollossal Killer to fully understand Konceptions. I would start off with Kollossal and have a think about your own variation...then once you've used it a few times get Konceptions.
Regards, David. |
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jbadman Special user London 984 Posts |
If it helps you decide ;-)
With 'KK' you can't always have the props examined. With 'Heirloom' you can *always* have the props examined. There's also a very strong emotional 'hook' associated with 'Heirloom' that gives it that much more of a 'kick'. You can read a lot more about it on our site - and even see the kind of image you'll be using... Cheers, Jamie.
http://www.underground-collective.com - check out our new DVD now!
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
Jamie,
I don't understand exactly what the Heirloom effect is. Why the picture? 0pus |
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jbadman Special user London 984 Posts |
Hi Opus,
From our web page: "The 'Heirloom' is a old sepia photograph. Of your Great Uncle Charlie - a superstitious old gambler. The photograph clearly shows a prediction made by the spectator to be 100% correct. And... it can always be examined." On our site you can see the kind of image used. Hope this helps. Jamie.
http://www.underground-collective.com - check out our new DVD now!
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
I guess my confusion comes from the picture on the site.
It is a portrati with the gentleman holding a card. You can only see the back of the card, not the value. Not really much of a prediction now, is it? 0pus |
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jbadman Special user London 984 Posts |
No it's not; that isn't the photo supplied with the effect but it's VERY similar. Imagine the card facing OUTWARDS in the photo and you'll get the idea... we put the image on the site so that you can see precisely the 'look and feel' will be.
Hope this clarifies! Jamie.
http://www.underground-collective.com - check out our new DVD now!
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