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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Flik by Alexis De La Fuente and World Magic Shop (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Magicsquared
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I wouldn't do the handling you mentioned above, lumberjohn, unless you're actively trying to get the discrepancy noticed. I don't think they should ever get a long look at the front of the card PRE-move. The selection, signing, and hole-punching are all legitimate, so I don't think there should be heat on where the hole is on the front of the card (until it's too late).

If you're overly concerned, you could always have them mark the card in a way that is symmetrical. considering it's a free selection I don't know that a full signature is needed to establish that it's their card. You could just have them mark it with an X in the middle.

But I genuinely think if you just flash the face of the card after it's punched (even with a signature) they're going to have a hard time remembering for sure the orientation of everything.
lumberjohn
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Okay, so the solution appears to be to either mark the card in such a way that it isn't clear which side the hole is on or to only briefly flash the card so the spectator can't determine which side the hole is on. In either case, the spectator won't know for sure on which side the hole began, and so will have no conviction that the hole has in fact moved.

I recall reading many books on magic theory containing a statement to the effect of "Before you turn an apple into an orange, your audience must be certain you started with an apple." In this effect, the orange is an orange all along, so you must only suggest you started with an apple. To me, that is a fatal flaw.
Alex DLF
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Magicsquared has nailed it !

In hundreds of performances, I never had a problem with a spectator saying "the hole is still here". But to each his own so maybe you could tty it out in the real world and see that your fears are not "real".

But I understand that you may think some people won't believe the hole has moved. It's your job and the flik gimmick job to cell the fact the hole has moved.

People who have bought it could comment if they have performed it for people Smile
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bobbyk
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It seems to me that some may be overthinking this. I have performed this a few times... I've elected to have the card signed and other times not. Nobody has yet said "hey, the hole didn't move" and having the card signed hasn't seemed to change the reaction. so far it's given me a great reaction regardless.
I think that because they actually SEE it move or so they think, they don't seem to dwell on it. Of course, some of that, in my opinion, comes down to audience management. I rarely give them time to think too much about it.... I move on. Sometimes I think we worry too much about having a card signed. While it's a must in some cases, I'm not sure FLIK requires it, at least not by the reactions I've had so far.

Not everything is for everybody, but for me, this was money well spent. My guess is that I'll be using it a fair amount. Should you get one, I hope you get the same reactions I've had so far!

Best,
Bk
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2013-10-11 15:26, lumberjohn wrote:
Okay, so the solution appears to be to either mark the card in such a way that it isn't clear which side the hole is on or to only briefly flash the card so the spectator can't determine which side the hole is on. In either case, the spectator won't know for sure on which side the hole began, and so will have no conviction that the hole has in fact moved.

I recall reading many books on magic theory containing a statement to the effect of "Before you turn an apple into an orange, your audience must be certain you started with an apple." In this effect, the orange is an orange all along, so you must only suggest you started with an apple. To me, that is a fatal flaw.


Your analogy only holds up if this wasn't a visual movement of a hole. But the movement IS visual. they see it in position A, then it's in position B, with no cover. The audience doesn't know the original location of the hole is important until after it has moved, at which point, it's too late.

The apple/orange comparison is often used for things like a coin exchange in two closed fists. that can be hard for an audience to follow. But if a penny visually changes into a dime the change has been established by the visual nature, NOT by a post-trick analysis of the current state being compared to the former state. Similarly with this trick, the movement is established by them seeing the hole move.
lumberjohn
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"It flies."
"Laypeople don't notice."
"I've gotten great reactions."

I don't doubt the sincerity of these responses and others like them. What they come down to is "It's good enough." Perhaps so. The "flicking" action sure looks great, and that alone may be sufficiently "magical" to justify a purchase even if the hole doesn't actually move.

It just depends on your standards and what you are looking for in a trick.
videoman
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I haven't yet used this, but have no doubt that I will.
I agree that some may be overthinking this. It is best as a quickie. If someone starts to comment that the hole didn't really move I would quickly interject and spread the deck and say here put your card back in the deck and boom, the cards gone, oh look it's in my pocket, now check this out and go on from there. IOW, take what I call the Greg Wilson approach and don't allow them to decide what they want to focus on, you make them focus on what YOU want them to.

I don't view this effect as a big stand-alone featured effect. I see it more as quick eye candy to quickly follow another routine that leaves them wondering if they really witnessed what they think they did. Perhaps I will use an optical illusion storyline or something.
I even think Alex over-thinks a little too. The demo on the DVD prefers to use a court card signed on both ends. That's too much trouble for my use, since my routine will be very quick and I will already have a hole punch in play.

It all depends on you intend to use it. For my desires it works beautifully and was a good purchase.
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2013-10-11 16:19, lumberjohn wrote:
"It flies."
"Laypeople don't notice."
"I've gotten great reactions."

I don't doubt the sincerity of these responses and others like them. What they come down to is "It's good enough." Perhaps so. The "flicking" action sure looks great, and that alone may be sufficiently "magical" to justify a purchase even if the hole doesn't actually move.

It just depends on your standards and what you are looking for in a trick.


I've made similar arguments to yours in dozens of threads on this board. Too often we underestimate the intelligence of our spectators.

But in this case I don't see the issue. The types of things I've seen spectators pounce on are logical inconsistencies,not discrepancies. And in this case, the discrepancy can be avoided altogether in a number of ways. But even if you don't go the route to hide the discrepancy, I think unless you telegraph what's about to happen it's unlikely to be noticed.

That being said, there are plenty of tricks a lot of people like but there is one niggling detail about them that just turn me off and I'd never perform them. Which is good. Or else I'd probably have a crippling magic-buying habit, as opposed to just being a functional addict. And this might just be one of those tricks for you.

I actually don't even own it myself. Although after talking about it so much I definitely now want to pick it up. The turn off to me was walking around with a hole-puncher, which changes the feeling from "here's a weird, magical moment" to "here's something I practiced and planned on performing today," which is never the vibe I'm going for.
lumberjohn
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But here, we're not talking about a discrepancy. The entire point of the trick is that the hole moves from one side of the card to another. That is the effect. And it doesn't. It remains exactly where you punched it.

Again, I fully expect this will play just fine for most audiences. But as you say, there is one "niggling detail" . . .
videoman
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Quote:
On 2013-10-11 16:19, lumberjohn wrote:

I don't doubt the sincerity of these responses and others like them. What they come down to is "It's good enough." Perhaps so. The "flicking" action sure looks great, and that alone may be sufficiently "magical" to justify a purchase even if the hole doesn't actually move.

It just depends on your standards and what you are looking for in a trick.


But the hole legitimately DOES move, they see it move right in front of their eyes. The clever gimmick makes that possible.
But I understand the point you are making, and I think there are several ways to work around this if you feel you must.

One way would be to not have the card signed at all, which for this trick I'm not sure you are really losing anything because the magical moment is the visible hole jumping. It defies the laws of nature to do that regardless of the card used. It's almost a moot point as to which card this happens to. For that matter I suppose you wouldn't really even need them to select a card at all. To me it's very similar to an effect like cig thru coin where you typically don't have a coin selected, just have it examined before and after the impossible occurrence.

Or perhaps they sign the card and while they are still holding it you ask them to hold it face down by one corner. You then the punch the hole, clearly demonstrate that it is a genuine hole and then take the card from them and only display it very briefly (possibly even using your other hand to partially obscure it if you feel it necessary) so they cannot be positive of the hole in relation to their signature. Or use whatever method you decide is best in order to prevent them from being sure of the actual location of the hole on the face of the card.

I don't have the prop in front of me so can't say for sure how practical this next method would be, but it did occur to me earlier today after reading a couple posts in this thread that perhaps first you could perform a type of the ol' sucker gag (Watch, I will do it invisibly first) where you apparently slide the hole to another location but they believe you are just being silly and the hole they now see is actually still the original hole in the original location. Then you say I can tell you are not impressed so this time I'll make it go back visibly and flick it and BOOM the hole jumps visibly back to the "original" spot and is then shown to be their signed card that they can keep if desired.

In any case, my point here is that I think it is very possible to work out a presentation to get over the obstacles you see in the trick.

But if others decide that the same obstacles do not exist for them then I don't think you should imply that their standards are lower than yours. Could just be a case where you are running without being chased.
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2013-10-11 18:00, lumberjohn wrote:
But here, we're not talking about a discrepancy. The entire point of the trick is that the hole moves from one side of the card to another. That is the effect. And it doesn't. It remains exactly where you punched it.

Again, I fully expect this will play just fine for most audiences. But as you say, there is one "niggling detail" . . .


From their perspective it doesn't remain in the same place, it moves from one side to the other. They see this with their eyes. And after it has moved there is really no way to backtrack if you perform this properly.

Think of it this way, if you didn't have the card signed (and since it's a free choice there's no need to) then your complaint is moot. So for people who think that will be an issue, that's definitely the way to go. Others will like the idea of a signed card and feel it's worth staging the effect in such a way that the spectator never really absorbs the necessary information to say "the hole didn't REALLY move." I'm not really a risk taker in magic, but I would be more than comfortable taking that risk.
Xiqual
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If they see the apple turn into the orange then there is no flaw.
James
ps
This idea is from Darwin Ortiz' lecture

Quote:
On 2013-10-11 15:26, lumberjohn wrote:
Okay, so the solution appears to be to either mark the card in such a way that it isn't clear which side the hole is on or to only briefly flash the card so the spectator can't determine which side the hole is on. In either case, the spectator won't know for sure on which side the hole began, and so will have no conviction that the hole has in fact moved.

I recall reading many books on magic theory containing a statement to the effect of "Before you turn an apple into an orange, your audience must be certain you started with an apple." In this effect, the orange is an orange all along, so you must only suggest you started with an apple. To me, that is a fatal flaw.
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
bond19
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Anyone considred following this up with TAG?

Is this possible for those who own Flik??
Alex DLF
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Quote:
On 2013-10-12 06:10, bond19 wrote:
Anyone considred following this up with TAG?

Is this possible for those who own Flik??




It's completely possible Smile
Get yourself the Flap Cards guide : http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/4435

Make sure to check my review website, new reviews coming every week ! http://lesavisdalexis.wix.com/reviews
Cameron Francis
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Don't own this. Watched the demo once. Fooled me bad.

This thing about whether the spectators will believe the hole moved... Come on. Flash the face if you want, add a little time misdirection, do the change and, boom, they'll be amazed. Seriously, they are not going to scrutinize where you punched the hole because there is no reason to. They don't know what you are going to do. And why show the face at all? It such a visual moment. Does it really matter if they see the face before you move it? Maybe but I don't know.

I just think these issues can totally be worked out very easily. Its a sweet looking effect.
magicinsight
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A 1/4 inch punch hole matches the hole in the Flik gimmick for those who needed to know what size punch hole to get.
Michael
“Belief matters more than truth. Every moment, belief in imaginary things alters lives while truth sits unnoticed and waits.”
—Hakim, Loreweaver
Kaliix
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I don't know if I'd use this, but I don't think anyone is going to notice that the hole remains similarly oriented to the signature after they see the hole visually jump. If one feels that a sharp spectator may notice, there is no reason to give them a clear visual hook to remember in terms of hole and signature before the jump. It is the spectators card that gets punched and it is or can be done slowly and openly without the signature and hole being seen together to establish orientation pre-jump.

A word of note from the Murphy's review, stand back just a bit when you do the flik, lest overly curious spectators become grabby.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Xcath1
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I purchased this because frankly I was fooled by the demo. I assumed there was a switch but the are great and I am not concerned about the inconsistencies that are bothering some of the posters.
I have however had trouble with the mechanics. The material to trigger the effect I find uncontrollable and now just with practice (I have not had it outside for a spin) the gimmick is partially torn. You are given the material to make another but will be writing to World Magic Shop to ask for another gimmick. The creator as you can see has been on the boards and has been helpful in PMs but either the trick is too finicky for my taste or certain details of the setup should be explained in greater detail. It is possible that I am one of the few with this problem but I thought it was fair to post my experience.
I have a general rule against buying gimmicked cards for just this reason but have had so much fun with Sharpie through card and envylope I thought I would give it a try. I don't expect thoses gimmicks to last forever either but they are reliable enough that I have already worked them extensively in the real world.
Alex DLF
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Strange thing Xcath Smile I'll be honest, I use my gimmick almost every week and it's in perfect condition. But as you have to Flik the card, I understand that your gimmick have some damage. I would be happy to send you a new one Smile Just give me your adress via pm !
Get yourself the Flap Cards guide : http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/4435

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Chance Wolf
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Regarding the hole/signature discrepancy.
Couldn't you just give the card a casual spin/rotation as a subtle flourish after you turn the card face down and BEFORE you punch the hole?
It seems it would create just enough "confusion" to not bother trying to back track.
Not sure if this is too simple a solution.
Let us know your thoughts.
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