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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
What he said ^
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
The other part of being poor is that when I do buy a gaff I research it thoroughly to make sure it's what I want before putting down my money. I've also learned that some of the most inexpensive stuff is the best.
As to whether one needs SOH to be a successful magician... well, Copperfield's rubber band trick may be my favorite but it's not what made him famous.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
The longer I am in magic, it seems the less I buy. That includes books, dvd's and props.
I do spend time in writing, creating and going to classes. These days they are more likely to be on theatre,improvisation or music. Time in say learning a finger picking version of a song I like, probably led me to also learn things like a one handed coin change. The move originally a two handed one is in Bobo by Howie Schwartzman. The coin is tossed (silver) up in the air..and comes down say chinese or copper. It also led me to discover nice changes with a c.............s.................. Harris still a bit CDO
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Yes. I'm unhappy with the polarisation going on in some quarters [pun intended].
I think only one person was taking up an extreme stance and that was the OP. Frankly, I think it's an unsafe assumption to think that gaff users don't bother with SOH. We do. |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
As I write often...
I'm two mints in one. Sort of like that commercial that states over and over ....AND is important. Nuts are as important as Bolts Spray (as in pre-laundering) is as important as Wash...(if I just sprayed and forgot to wash...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm) They do compliment each other...like stamps on a letter...like birds of a feather ..they could stick together.. Harris into stream of thinking/typing mode...
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
The difficult parts of John Ramsay's Cylinder and Coins routine are the non gaffed parts. Finding suitable feints to throw off today's magicians is its own problem. Especially now that FP and EG are more commonly used than Downs style back clips...
Galloway published a non-gaffed stack of quarters penetration. Harry Lorayne published the outline of a non-gaffed Cylinder and Coins routine in the January 1983 issue of Apocalypse Magazine. Today's readers will likely fill in the elided use of the Deep Palm Tenkai Pennies sleight in context Still not much dialog on doing the two phases in reverse order... maybe the NYCS folks will do a disc on mass migration tricks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
They have DVDs on just about everything else.
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
I get the feeling that people who don't agree with one side or the other are going to become argumentative here. This has been a good discussion from both sides and points made. It comes down to personal preference. People have stated why they prefer one or the other or both. And that's good. Hopefully this discussion will be food for thought for those who seek to learn.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
There's gaff stuff in Bobo and he explains the sleights used for the gaffs. Combining isn't exactly unprecedented
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Yea I always Love Food for Thought! Thanks Michael !:)
And yea some great Sleight/Gaff stuff In Bobo's The Shot glass Coins trou the table Is KILLER!!! It's Set down! But I have A stand-up Version! |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
I've noted elsewhere that Ramsey's Cylinder and Coins is sleight-heavy. It still cannot be done without the gaff. I didn't know about the Galloway non-gaffed version of stack of quarters or the Harry Lorayne outline. Interesting.
I really don't think there was any conflict here. We all agree that sleight of hand is essential for doing coin magic. Whether we use gaffs or not, or how much and which ones, is really a matter of personal preference and skill level. I think we got caught up with the definition of "purity." Purity is something that doesn't actually exist in reality. Everyone can, and does, have their own definition as to what constitutes "pure." |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I try to leave "pure" in the effect side of tricks. How best to get the trick done so it's practical ... Backstage stuff that the audience should not notice.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
That's it: pure effect.
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
I think we're all striving for the same thing here.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Yep. The OP was a bit contentious, but it sparked some interesting discussion.
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cafeinst Elite user 489 Posts |
I wasn't trying be argumentative when I wrote my post. I was truly interested in a good answer. Right now, I think the ideal magician should use both SOH and self working tricks. A combination of methods can only make it more difficult for the spectator to figure things out.
But I think the best card tricks are self-working (invisible deck, mental photography, out of this world, mastermind deck), while the best coin tricks involve sleight of hand (there is so much good stuff out there). And the best rope tricks involve easy sleight of hand (cut and restored rope and professor's nightmare). |
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rklew64 Inner circle 1265 Posts |
Is your main concern that specs figure out the tricks in your show? At this point, as long as your kind of magic brings smiles, what do you care what we express, regardless the very narrow lean to SOH from this thread. Please, no 5 pages.
Great that you've arrived at some determination - To me, just odd that you came to it this way and after all those years of performing. How any of us approach magic is subjective and dogmatic - just what that ratio is obviously personal. I wish I had that viewpoint before I knee jerked replied like a boob and said that in my head and just totally left it alone. I can only guess that you have reached a ceiling of your level of magic and exhausted all possible commercial non-SOH effects and afraid to dive into the deep end portion of the magic skill set pool without the floatation devices. It almost smells like a confidence issue? ok, to everyone's joy, no more from me on this. I better go find a thread on the coloring book and provide a supportive sincere constructive suggestion. |
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cafeinst Elite user 489 Posts |
The reason why I never really got into sleight of hand before this year is because I started magic at a young age, 7 or 8. Because my hands were small and uncoordinated, SOH was something that the bigger and older magicians did. So I concentrated on self-working stuff and was more concerned with my performance, whether people liked my show or not. That attitude carried into my adult years.
It wasn't until last summer when I realized that I could actually do SOH pretty well. That was a surprise to me! |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
We should be clear that because a trick uses gaffs, that does not mean it's self-working, i.e. involving no skill at all. There are hundreds of self-working card tricks using only a regular deck of cards and requiring no skill whatsoever. The only self-working coin trick using only regular coins I can think of is a trick called "Sheep and Thieves" (I think that's the name). The only self-working coin trick using a gaff I can think of is Scotch and Soda.
Even a simple change using a c/s coin requires at least a little bit of skill: the ability to turn the coin over without looking like that is merely what you did. Can anyone think of any other truly self-working coin tricks requiring no skill whatsoever? |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Yea even In Thieves And sheep you have To set the coins down One at A time! And pick them up one at a time KEEPING the hands closed! In S&S You have place on coin under The Outer! I don't Think there is any thing As a Self-working trick! You have always Have to Have Patter,
Timing, Sell! If it's Self-working Then just set in on the table and say " Ok trick work!" |
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