The Magic Caf
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Kard Klub Underground vs. Born To Perform (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
meilechl
View Profile
Special user
657 Posts

Profile of meilechl
I don't have Kard Klub but I do have BTP (which I bought about a year after I began to perform card magic - ie. not as a total beginner) and I can't reccomend it enough. It's true that you won't get any revolutionary effects (although the tricks taught are classics and goood) but you will learn all the basic sleights. Oz is an excellent teacher and regardless of what you may think of Penguin, no one can deny Oz's skill.

I know that there'll probably be some derogatory comments about him and about his performance style, but as a card handler he's top notch. He also goes into all the details of the sleights (with the exception of the pass, for which you'll need a whole learning source just for it).

Whatever you do, DO NOT get the ETMCM series yet. They've excellent tricks and Michael Ammar does a great job of teaching them but many of the tricks assume that you've got some card experience. Ammar goes into the fine details of the tricks but not into the sleights.

You won't go wrong with BTP.
Paul H
View Profile
Inner circle
UK South Coast
1134 Posts

Profile of Paul H
I started out with the Gerry Griffin Complete Card Magic DVD course and the RRTCM. This is the only DVD series that is truly graded with each volume stepping up the difficulty level. I also found many of the effects in Vol's 1 and 2 surprisingly strong from the start considering the difficulty level. The set includes Vols 6 and 7 which have most of the sleights you will ever need and they cover nearly all of those in RRTCM. Born to Perform by Oz Perlman is very good but it has a somewhat rushed feel to it. It is also designed for street work rather than close up table work and the routines are something of a 'challenge' in my view. I also like the Ammar series but again, I really think they are a bit much for the beginner. In this respect I fully agree with meilechi. Ammar has a loyal following at 'the Café' with good reason and not recommending him tends to draw more 'loyal' votes. I realise its a difficult choice. Another way forward is to just buy Vol 6 and 7 of the Griffin set and then move to Ammar. If you decide not to go the DVD route you could not do better than follow the advice of Darin Ortiz. He suggests staying away from DVD's and videos and purely working through RRTCM and Card College Vol 1 before trying anything else. Good luck.

Regards,

Paul H
Oz Fan
View Profile
Loyal user
277 Posts

Profile of Oz Fan
I don't have BTP, but I've heard it is great. Not for an intermediate magician, but for a beginner. Teaches sleights and flourishes. The 4 routines it teaches are 2 card monte, Here then there, Biddle Trick, and Ambitious card.


-Blake-
Blake S.
wsduncan
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle, WA
3619 Posts

Profile of wsduncan
Quote:
On 2003-12-15 22:50, BradleyNott wrote:
I feel ripped off on some of Ammar's descriptions of classic effects.

Especially triumph, his explanation is missing all the good subtle moves that are in Dai Vernon's original trick. Not to mention Ammar's false shuffle for triumph isn't even the same as Vernon's, it's worse!


Bradley,
You might want to go back and watch the video again. The version of Triumph on ETOCM volume 1 is Tenkai's, not Vernon's and it doesn't use a false shuffle it uses a faced deck and the Tenkai Optical revolve. It does say "Vernon" on the box credits but if I recall correctly he does explain the difference in the explanation section. Remember, this was the first EASY to Master video. A full deck false shuffle isn't exactly what most beginners would call "easy".

As for the Ammar vs. the rest question? That's an easy one to answer. Michael was the first American to win at FISM, one of the very few to asked back for a second appearance on the Tonight show and he's performed at, among other venues, a Presidential Inauguration. Those other guys have performed for a webcam.
chrisrkline
View Profile
Special user
Little Rock
965 Posts

Profile of chrisrkline
Quote:
On 2004-06-21 00:14, wsduncan wrote:
Quote:
On 2003-12-15 22:50, BradleyNott wrote:
I feel ripped off on some of Ammar's descriptions of classic effects.

Especially triumph, his explanation is missing all the good subtle moves that are in Dai Vernon's original trick. Not to mention Ammar's false shuffle for triumph isn't even the same as Vernon's, it's worse!


Bradley,
You might want to go back and watch the video again. The version of Triumph on ETOCM volume 1 is Tenkai's, not Vernon's and it doesn't use a false shuffle it uses a faced deck and the Tenkai Optical revolve. It does say "Vernon" on the box credits but if I recall correctly he does explain the difference in the explanation section. Remember, this was the first EASY to Master video. A full deck false shuffle isn't exactly what most beginners would call "easy".

As for the Ammar vs. the rest question? That's an easy one to answer. Michael was the first American to win at FISM, one of the very few to asked back for a second appearance on the Tonight show and he's performed at, among other venues, a Presidential Inauguration. Those other guys have performed for a webcam.







I could be wrong and I am not an expert on the names of this stuff. But I have ETMCM vol 1 and the Vernon Revelations DVD. When Ammar does the triumph routine for Vernon on the Revelations DVD, he does roughly the same shuffle that he does on ETMCM. It is a strip out shuffle in both cases. He does a few other subtleties in the Revelations DVD, but for the most part they are the same.
Chris
Jonathan R
View Profile
Loyal user
212 Posts

Profile of Jonathan R
Quote:
On 2004-06-21 00:14, wsduncan wrote:
....As for the Ammar vs. the rest question? That's an easy one to answer. Michael was the first American to win at FISM, one of the very few to asked back for a second appearance on the Tonight show and he's performed at, among other venues, a Presidential Inauguration. Those other guys have performed for a webcam.


I could be wrong, but wasn't Lance Burton the first American to win FISM?
dynamiteassasin
View Profile
Inner circle
Naval Air Facility, Atsugi, Japan
1158 Posts

Profile of dynamiteassasin
Also try Brainstorm:The Magic of John Guastaferro
a must have of every magician. He also teaches the beautiful Ballet Cut.
meilechl
View Profile
Special user
657 Posts

Profile of meilechl
Quote:
As for the Ammar vs. the rest question? That's an easy one to answer. Michael was the first American to win at FISM, one of the very few to asked back for a second appearance on the Tonight show and he's performed at, among other venues, a Presidential Inauguration. Those other guys have performed for a webcam.







What's that got to do with
A) Whether he's a good teacher
B) If his material's any good for a beginner?
dynamiteassasin
View Profile
Inner circle
Naval Air Facility, Atsugi, Japan
1158 Posts

Profile of dynamiteassasin
Oliver Macia's Control Freak is also a bang for the buck.
wsduncan
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle, WA
3619 Posts

Profile of wsduncan
Quote:
On 2004-06-21 01:08, chrisrkline wrote:
He does a few other subtleties in the Revelations DVD, but for the most part they are the same.

I stand corrected. I just watched the video again and he does teach the Vernon false shuffle. I was thinking of Daryl's Revelations videos which is where the Tenkai version is taught.


[quote]On 2004-06-21 18:53, meilechl wrote:
Quote:
What's that got to do with
A) Whether he's a good teacher
B) If his material's any good for a beginner?

Ok, in plainer terms. Ammar is a world class performer who's been teaching magic to people all over the world for almost a quarter century.

Who would you expect would be the better teacher?

I might also point out that there are NINE volumes of the ETMCM series. If they didn't deliver the goods would people still be buying them?
winstonwolf
View Profile
New user
68 Posts

Profile of winstonwolf
BTP vs ETMCM is not an apples for apples comparision.

BTP takes you from knowing how to hold the deck through to an ambitious card routine. ETMCM is a series of tricks, which assumes you have the basics down.

For a complete beginner, BTP is a great way foundation in card magic. The range of material is quite broad so you can get the basics down and still perform some great effects within a reasonable period. It doesn't attempt to teach you every single sleight ever invented.

For a beginner it should really whet your appetite.

I would say that studying BTP followed by ETMCM would be a great combination.

Personally I much prefer to learn from DVD's than from books. For me, given what I'm trying to do is inherently visual and is basically physical manipulation, somebody showing me it, with the ability to slow mo etc speeds my learning.
Marco S.
View Profile
Inner circle
1017 Posts

Profile of Marco S.
The best series is Daryl`s Encyclopedia of Card Tricks in my opinion.

Born to Perform is not that bad, as most people claim. It has just fewer sleights than others, which are nevertheless the most effective, probably.
meilechl
View Profile
Special user
657 Posts

Profile of meilechl
[quote]On 2004-06-22 01:43, wsduncan wrote:
Quote:
Ok, in plainer terms. Ammar is a world class performer who's been teaching magic to people all over the world for almost a quarter century.

Who would you expect would be the better teacher?

I might also point out that there are NINE volumes of the ETMCM series. If they didn't deliver the goods would people still be buying them?


It still doesn't prove anything regarding whether the ETMCM series would be any good for a beginner.
Kovner
View Profile
New user
1 Post

Profile of Kovner
Maybe this isn't an issue for a lot of you guys, but for beginners price is usually very important (in any activity). Born to Perform is only one DVD so you only have to pay for one. Ammar's set has many volumes and I've only found it sold in sets (if there is a place to buy them individually, please tell). It seems to me that BTP would be a good beginner's video for someone to get into magic. I just ordered it and my plan is to learn the material in that and Card College vol 1 and then go from there.
silent shadow
View Profile
Loyal user
United Kingdom
231 Posts

Profile of silent shadow
ETMCM

Yes they are sold separatly , and Ammar does teach the sleight's required.... he was very inventive installing super practice mode on the dvd.. slow motion footage of each move required , Even McBride got his permission to use this format for his dvd's............... it's that good. Smile
Magic or just an illusion? it's a free choice .... isn't it?
jaybaby
View Profile
New user
Australia
87 Posts

Profile of jaybaby
Maybe this should be in the DVD/video forum
wsduncan
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle, WA
3619 Posts

Profile of wsduncan
Quote:
On 2004-06-22 15:55, meilechl wrote:
It still doesn't prove anything regarding whether the ETMCM series would be any good for a beginner.

Well, if you wish to be precise it's a bit hard to "prove" an opinion. One can only state what one believes. It's not like a race where there's a clear winner with everybody behind him at the finish line.

My opinion is that Michael Ammar is one of the best all around teachers of magic. I base that opinion on these facts.

He has been extremely successful at teaching magic in lectures, books and magazines (Magical Arts Journal) for more than twenty years.

He's pretty much set the standard for teaching card magic in the ETMCM series, which is in it's ninth volume. That series is targeted at beginners in Card Magic.

The fact is if the videos didn't provide what students want and need there wouldn't have been a fifth video let alone a sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth.
tyrael07
View Profile
Regular user
Surabaya , Indonesia
105 Posts

Profile of tyrael07
Well I prefer Oz's teaching style, I don't why I can't stand Ammar's giggle lol sorry..
But i`ll keep referring to him for his expertise though.
The impossible things are often the untried.

Magic is not what you see.
It's about what you make others see.
chrisrkline
View Profile
Special user
Little Rock
965 Posts

Profile of chrisrkline
One way to look at the question on ETMCM or BTP for beginner magicians is what do we mean by beginner? I have seen "beginners" who could not learn to take one card off the top of the deck and flip it face up like a book, after two hours of work. But, if a person has the basic ability to shuffle cards and has some basic manipulation ability, then I think they might be able to handle the ETMCM. It might take some work, but I think it would be OK. But, PTP is one DVD. If the person is in need of more basic training, then they could get that first (or Kaufman's DVD). They might also help themselves with the Royal Road or Card College series.
Chris
meilechl
View Profile
Special user
657 Posts

Profile of meilechl
Quote:
On 2004-06-24 01:33, wsduncan wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-06-22 15:55, meilechl wrote:
It still doesn't prove anything regarding whether the ETMCM series would be any good for a beginner.

My opinion is that Michael Ammar is one of the best all around teachers of magic.. I base that opinion on these facts.


You're missing the point. As good as he may be at teaching (and he is), his material is still only geared to those who have some card knowledge. For someone that is just setting out in the world of card magic I'd reccomend a beginner's dvd (ie. BTP).
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Kard Klub Underground vs. Born To Perform (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
X
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2023 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.03 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL