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deputy Inner circle USA 1041 Posts |
Twistedace
I hope your show goes great. As for all the negative feedback from the people on the boards, forget them. Material needs to be tested and fleshed out while perfoming. If you and your audience enjoy themselves, who cares about the rest. Just my thoughts |
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Cervier Inner circle France 1274 Posts |
The guy was probably a bad clown as well?
What I mean is, there are bad performers whatever the art. Is someone going to be a bad mentalist because he's a magician? Or because he's a bad performer? I don't know what kind of magician Bob was, but as he says, he seems to be doing ok as a mentalist... Who would you trust to be a better mentalist? An experienced magician? Or and experienced car mechanics? We all agree the magician would have to get rid of his "magician mind", but we can suppose he's already familiar with acting in front of an audience... Who else was a magician? Docc Hilford? Not a reliable ad writer, but respected enough his name his brought up whenever 3quivoque is mentionned. How about Gary Kurtz? Or that guy who wrote "Absolute magic" (yes, "magic"). What's his name? Derren Something... Could it be the problem is not so much magicians, but bad performers who don't think about what they are doing, about their art, and hurt mentalism, as much as they'd hurt magic? Or juggling, singing, dancing, comedy, etc.?
"A friend is someone who know you well but loves you anyway" H. Lauwick
The Lynx Deck, http://jmmaries.free.fr/cervier/ Grapheeteez, on GooglePlay Telemos the peek envelope, on SkywardMagic Telemos en Francais sur TheMysteryStore |
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: "Hypnotist, Mentalist & Memory Entertainer" From Mindpro's profile. And, "We Are Only Limited By Our Own Imagination."On 2013-10-04 18:16, Mindpro wrote: |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
Whilst I wish you all the best with the performance I have to admit that I agree with mindpro at least as far as including mentalism in a paid gig where you are booked as a magician. Ok fair enough walk around tends to be far more informal than stage and cabarets but I still couldn't imagine doing mentalism in a paid gig. I've been studying mentalism for about a year now and no longer consider myself a magician, rather a mentalist in training. Paid gigs will still be magic for the time being because my act is worked and to be honest if a booker says can you add a bit of this or a bit of that the answer is no, my act is my act, book it or don't. It's nice to not need the work lol, didn't have that luxury as a full time pro but even back then I'd rather be seen as inflexible than crap!.
I do perform mentalism regularly close up and parlour because it is the only way to learn but never in a paid gig, I am a very very long way from that. I know a fair amount of techniques and plenty of effects but, scripting, acting, blocking, character development, routining is still going to take a lot of study, a lot of experience and a lot of learning who I am as a mentalist rather than a magician. Until I am confident of my understanding of those areas I will not even consider including mentalism in a paid gig or promoting myself as a mentalist (beyond these boards). Mark |
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scottyocean Regular user 110 Posts |
I hate close up mentalism. It is not well done. Magic seems to be more visual and hard hitting close up. Want to dazzle them with mentalism? Perform numerolgy!
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Steve Suss Inner circle 1193 Posts |
Quote: well, I'm glad we cleared that up. LOL
On 2013-10-08 02:52, scottyocean wrote: |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-08 02:52, scottyocean wrote: That makes no sense whatsoever. "It is not well done" BY WHOM? No one? Ever heard of Bert Reese? |
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Jamie D Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2292 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-08 02:52, scottyocean wrote: Wow are you wrong! Being able to duplicate a drawing, reveal a name with an accurate description of the person or just predicting the outcome of something is about as hard hitting as you can get. The problem with close up mentalism is that in some cases, it's actually harder then most magic as if not presented well, it can flop pretty hard. Darren
Twitter @darjames
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AttnPls Special user 554 Posts |
I am in total agreement with Jay Are and Mindpro.
To magicians who want to throw a few mentalism routines into their performances, I beg you STOP. As someone who cares deeply about my art and craft, I truly hate seeing these "professionals" trivialize and destroy the standards (as in routines) of mentalism. I know, I know, you truly blieve that YOU do both magic and mentalism VERY well. You perform your mentalism tricks flawlessly and get a good reaction from your spectators. If this last sentence didn't make you cringe, I can assure you that YOU are precisely the performers I am talking about. Magic can be wonderful. I encourage you to become a great magical artist and draw your inspiration from the vast pool of magical routines that are available. Please don't pee in our pool. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-09 14:28, AttnPls wrote: The one that gets me every time is the "as long as the audience is entertained that is all that maters". This is so wrong on many levels as any professional should know. That is an overly simplistic statement and shows those performers only care about the surface. And usually that is even a misconception. For some reason I see this most with kids entertainers and closeup workers. A few weeks ago we were in a restaurant that had a magician that went tableside. I should have known what was in store for us as the lobby sign said "appearing tonight, The Great XXXXXXX!" This should have been our first clue. Even though we tried to defend ourselves, prevent eye contact, and seemed to be engrossed in deep conversation with business papers in front of us, he came to our table anyhow, did three tricks, amused himself, took his tip and left. We continued to watch him and at table after table, people thought he was terrible, as he laughed at himself, but as soon as he'd leave a table everyone started talking and laughing about how terrible he was. Yet, he had no idea any of this was going on - AT ALL. One table that had been drinking played along giving him sh*t every step of the way. They put him through the ringer, didn't tip him and scared him off quickly. About thirty minutes later I went to the men's room and The Great XXXX! was in the lobby (now empty) and the same table of drinkers were out in the lobby talking to him and still messing with him. One lady was taking pictures with her cell phone while two guys were behind him flipping him off. Yet the one guy, who could barely keep a straight face said "oh we really loved your a-m-a-z-i-n-g magic, we'll be back and next time we'll bring some friends". They were totally giving him BS and blatantly laughing behind his back. When I came out they were all gone but The Great XXXXX! who was talking to a waitress as I over heard him say "they really liked me alot..." He had no idea of the reality of the entire room. Now granted this guy was worse than most restaurant magician's I've seen, but he had no clue what so ever. He sincerely thinks he kicked a** and that table loved him. What a joke. But I'm sure he belives "as long as the people were entertained, that's all that matters". True professionals know that a successful performance must excel on many levels simultaneously, with the audience being entertained only one of those levels. What I don't get why someone would rather be a poor or mediocre "mentalist" rather than being a good or great magician? Then again I believe that many of these performers that think their good "because my audience tells me that at every show" often can't truly distinguish between a good performance and a bad performance in the first place. Especially if they are only basing it on what they're told from audience members. It's like eating in a poor restaurant, while a few may actually complain, most will not. They simply will never return to that restaurant, but will certainly tells others of their dissatisfaction and poor experience. Most displeased people will not make the effort to approach you after a show and say things like, "that was disappointing", "I was not entertained" or 'that sucked". We only tend to hear from those that feel like complimenting you somehow makes them likable and closer to you the entertainer. You must keep this in perspective or your entire perception will be off (as we have often seen here). Some people can't handle the truth. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
From the examples given, I think its more a case of "guy with an unhealthy ego and sense of worth", rather than anything else...
what advice would you give twistedace then, on how to bridge the gap and make the transition, whilst still paying his bills? he seems genuine, has been polite and so on... rather than just saying "you guys are all the same..." why not treat him as an individual? you'd want the same treatment, surely?
I've asked to be banned
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innercirclewannabe Inner circle Ireland 1597 Posts |
It never ceases to amaze me how the English language can travel differently between, predominately, English speaking Countries. The following comment is stacked with innuendo this side of the pond;
" One lady was taking pictures with her cell phone while two guys were behind him flipping him off". Although, I think I know what Mindpro was saying. His post was right IMO - In other words, Don't get sucked in by those who tell you what you wanna hear. I offered the following advice to Twistace on the Hypnosis forum: Just be true to yourself & acknowledge what you're good at. I would never put myself forward as a Magician, because I'd be perceived as a S-it Magician. I will stick to what I have spent many years trying to be good at,and in this, I hope I can justify my asking fee.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-09 17:08, IAIN wrote: I have through some PMs with him. He knows that, and he has seemingly accepted some of my advice. I think I and others here have helped him (and others too) by creating perspective and a better understanding through several threads over the last few weeks. In my opinion, there are two type of magician's coming into mentalism - those that take immediate offense to such things as the differences offered between mentalism and magic, the often referred to magician's mindset, this "elitist" perception, and the commitment of study and understanding required to become skilled in mentalism, and understanding mentalism is not just mental-themed tricks or magic. The other is the person that truly and literally tried to understand that these are separate and different modalities and is wiling and committed to put in the work, do their due diligence and know there is something (a level) that they do not yet understand, and rather than becoming defensive, become even more enthralled and excited about seriously trying to comprehend what they do not yet know, yet others obviously do. They are willing to listen at least as much as they talk. of the performing mentalist. They also know and truly understand this is a process. I also think for those that do "get it" they also realize there are many here A.) with much more experience than themselves that they can learn from, and B.) these people are willing to share, help and support them once they are in the right place, position and mindset. I don't believe twistedace is seeking to pay his bills and live off of mentalism yet, which is smart, but he seems to be understanding, through the help of many of us here, where he is headed. He asks intelligent questions, few having anything to do with the effects or "how does Derren..." We'll see how he progresses. I called him on a few things that he now understands and has received similar thoughts from others he respects and looks up to and is understanding this is good advice. His sudden interest in both mentalism and hypnosis were a bit off-putting at first and quite overwhelming for someone new to these areas, and he has since made some adjustments. As I told him, I think he will do just fine. Iain, there are two separate things going on here. The influx of new "I want to add mentaism to my magic show, and I want the secrets now" plethora of newbies here, and the other members that truly are at a place in their art, careers or business that want to evolve properly and individually to other areas or levels. I feel they are offered information and assistance individually, based on their approach and interests. |
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: Bravo! A real voice of reason. It's not that those who diasgree with certain aspects of the concept don't have some valid points. It's that they are either flat-out-rude, or they have extremely poor communication skills. The former would would be just cause for questioning their actual knowledge of any given subject. The latter would be just cause to doubt their actual abilities as public entertainers, considering that entertaining requires strong communication skills. Thanks for your post, Ian.On 2013-10-09 17:08, IAIN wrote: |
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twistedace Inner circle philadelphia 3772 Posts |
I have thick skin and I like hearing the different views on this. I don't mind opinions as long as they are presented reasonably. Once people becoming insulting due to egocentrism, I stop paying attention to their nonsense. Thank you once again to everyone has responded to this thread.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
@mindpro - Fair enough...
I do get it - it happens more times than it doesn't (the apparent quick 'n easy switch from magic to mentalism I mean) - when in reality its a hodge-podge of something else entirely... this thread just read a bit too OTT at times, and felt like it was more about giving the guy a kick rather than a break... he'll be changing his avatar next!* *please let it not be one of two fingers being held to the temple
I've asked to be banned
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twistedace Inner circle philadelphia 3772 Posts |
It'll be me wearing a top hat with a pendulum..ya know...for all of my fans on this forum
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twistedace Inner circle philadelphia 3772 Posts |
I have talked to a few members, such as MindPro, through PM to gain a better understanding of why they seemed very confrontational at first. I will say that MindPro has been very helpful in helping me to really think about myself as a mentalist. It's a difficult switch because mentalism is ENTIRELY different from magic. Constructive criticism is always good and welcomed. The key word is constructive.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Thanks for the kind words twistedace. I think some here confuse being a straight shooter, experienced professional and passion with being confrontational or insensitive to the plight of the mentalist wanna-be newbie or magician. Defensiveness can prevent progress, learning and evolving.
Also something that it seems some here have difficulty understanding is this is the deep level of existence some of us have here, which includes our views towards our industry. This has been my profession for 37 years. It's what I eat, drink and sleep. When it is your career, livelihood, and passion, you view and treat it much differently and more seriously that those that just do it "for fun", as a hobby, or casual interest to be seen as something cool. It's no different than any other professional or industry. Some here can't handle things being told the way they are or in reality from a straight shooter, which is too bad, I make no apologies. As students that I coach in this business know, I hold nothing back, call it as it is, don't sugarcoat, and call a spade a spade based on my knowledge, experience and perspectives. Often my views and experience uniquely come from perspectives many here have never experienced or can't understand, as I have been blessed, I know that. So complain if you'd prefer, or you can hear the true points and message and learn from not only myself but others that have experience and knowledge different from and beyond what some of us will ever know. They are protective of their art and career. When magician's complain or take offense that tells me all I need to know. When they quit complaining enough to learn and be open-minded, most recently like twistedace, they will learn, benefit and understand the FREE advice that is being offered by many. If and when the time comes that twistedace wants or needs entertainment business advice or eventually gets to his interest in hypnosis, I will be there to support and help him as long as he approaches it correctly as I view it, and of course if he wants my assistance. Members complaining or being argumentative or defensive have driven many great pros from this forum. Even a few that are still around limit their participation here due to the attitudes and caviler treatment and trivialization of and towards our art. Some have more patience and will try to be gentle and diplomatic to a point, before choosing not to participate out of frustration. The happenings and attitudes here in this forum are very representative as to exactly what's happening in and to our industry right now. This should actually be a wakeup call to those that do "get it" and want to preserve our industry before it too is reduced to the ipod DJ, the level of karaoke, and the out of the box $500 magician. Again to call a spade a spade, this is happening to our industry due specifically to three things - lack of respect and casual attitudes towards the history and art and education of mentalism, exposure (almost always by magicians-hmmm) and too easy access to industry content, and magicians "trying" to come to "mentalism" to "add some mentalism" to their magic shows. Sorry but that is the reality as I see it. Typically the only ones complaining or having a problem unfortunately is the magician or newbie magician wanting to get into mentalism. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I agree Mindpro. And I also agree that twistedace has been respectful to the art and has demonstrated his sincerity in trying to understand the point of view of most professional mentalists.
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