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bobser
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"So what would be the greatest phenomena that can be achieved with hypnosis?"
I was asked again today. I always have a long think before I answer depending on the enquirer.
The usual ones are getting a woman to have sex with you and getting a person to kill another (I know you all know that).

But I want to aim this question at those members who, whilst doing hypnosis, actually do NOT believe it exists (Tony maybe?)
I want to know what their thoughts are on why someone does 'heavy phenomena' if there is no existence?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Shrubsole
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Didn't our mate Derren already do that? - Get someone to kill someone else that is, as he has always avoided trying to get women to have sex with him. Smile

But seriously this will be an interesting topic and very grey area as to where normal conversational suggestion stops and hypnosis begins or are they the same thing?
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
innercirclewannabe
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I think it is ultimately all got to do with compliance. As human beings we are all hardwired to behave in a certain way when we feel a figure of authority tells us to do so. Whether its stage ( particularly stage), TV work, or one 2 one - a certain amount of compliance will always be at the forefront of the individual (s) thinking, at least in my experience, and IMO, thus far... I may very well think differently in time to come!

As for the "greatest phenomena", I think in these austere times, getting someone to part with their hard earned cash would definitely qualify. The other ones that you mention could be looked upon as a "little bonus" - depending on who you're doing it with, and who you're doing it to! Smile
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
mindpunisher
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In general the animal kingdom are hardwired for authority in other words most of us respond to "leaders". But that's just one inborn unconscious response that is probably conditioned into us or taught to us by our parents then society.

I don't believe that's what hypnosis is - but a doorway into hypnosis. Hypnotists use or take advantage of that natural inbuilt or conditioned response. Apart from authority people are also more suggestible when highly emotional fear, excitement, sexual feelings, strong desire, in emotional pain, in large groups, confused etc etc . These are natural states where the door is open to a good hypnotist who can exploit or influence unconscious process towards an outcome such as a change in behaviour inside or outside.

All hypnotic phenomena is experienced every day all a good hypnotist does is amplify it to achieve a goal. ( killing some one, getting someone to sleep with you). I used to be insulted when females used to ask if I ever did that as if I would ever need to???????

The most impressive phenomena for me is amplified amnesia where someone can do all sorts of outrageous things on stage yet not remember any thing. It still amazes me.

by the way when a woman is leading up to orgasm she is so suggestible you can insert a keyword re-induction which can be triggered anywhere later and she will have one instantly and multiple times. The keyword can last for months especially if she wants it to...
bobser
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Is this real (I think it is)?

(Brainwashed to Kill) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gO72dK4HjA

And if it IS real does that stop, forever, the argument that it's merely authoratative or compliance? I mean I understand that I/we can be extremely authoratative, but just to authoratatively tell someone (no matter how compliant) to kill just won't do it now will it?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Shrubsole
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Come on own up, bobser, who is on your list to get rid of? Smile
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
dmkraig
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Bobser, it's impossible to tell. There's too much editing and not enough information and background about the hypnotized person. They claim he would never normally kill, but provide no evidence to support that claim. They say he didn't know it was fake but provide no evidence to support that. And, the fact that the hypnotized person was an actor (or wannabe actor) makes this suspect.
mindpunisher
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I don't know if the tv is real or not. But I believe a small percentage would do almost anything you ask them if phrased properly.
TonyB2009
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I believe it is all a matter of compliance. Most of us will comply if told to by an authority figure. Workers did not shovel Jews into the ovens because they were hypnotised, or because they were anti-Semitic. They did it because they were ordered to by those further up the food chain.

How many women sleep with a guy because he buys them a dinner and puts pressure on them that they owe him? It happens all the time.

People will sleep with you against their will without hypnosis, and they will kill for you as well. I would be very surprised, however, if you could hypnotise a woman and get her into bed through traditional hypnosis, without coercion.

It is not hypnosis that makes them do what you want, but coercion and compliance, I believe.
innercirclewannabe
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While I agree with you Tony regarding compliance being a massive ingredient in hypnosis, I don't agree with your analogy regarding the murdering of all those innocent Jews in WW2. The workers did not carry out those ghastly acts because of compliance, rather, it was done through fear.

I have to say though that reading you're posts over the years on this forum regarding hypnosis, has influenced my analysis of same. Hope to catch your show one of these days. Work will have me down in Munster on a more regular basis in '14.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
Owen Mc Ginty
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Thinking about compliance:

Compliance explains WHY I put my hands together in the first place, and how I imagine what the hypnotist requests.
I did not squeeze them together and there was no physiological reason why I should not be able to pull my hands apart (I am no stranger to hand sticks)

But how does compliance explain why I "feel" that something has solidified around my hands sticking them together? I mean I am not talking about about the act of not being able to pull them apart - I am talking about experiencing a feeling that was not suggested by the hypnotist. I could feel an invisible force/substance solidifying around my hands....
If you never fail, you're not trying hard enough.
Anthony Jacquin
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Indeed. Tony's explanation is missing the classic suggestion effect.
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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mindpunisher
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What exactly is compliance anyway or the imagination? When you put the word "just" in front of a word you dismiss something as if you know exactly what it is. Words never describe anything completely..

And Tony why would you need to be bound by "traditional" hypnosis?

Tony's explanation misses out hypnotic phenomena such as full blown amnesia also. Which requires no suggestion to manifest after termination of hypnosis.
quicknotist
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I'm curious. Did your recent training with Justin Tranz confirm this belief for you?

Quote:
On 2013-10-14 17:35, TonyB2009 wrote:
I believe it is all a matter of compliance. Most of us will comply if told to by an authority figure. Workers did not shovel Jews into the ovens because they were hypnotised, or because they were anti-Semitic. They did it because they were ordered to by those further up the food chain.

How many women sleep with a guy because he buys them a dinner and puts pressure on them that they owe him? It happens all the time.

People will sleep with you against their will without hypnosis, and they will kill for you as well. I would be very surprised, however, if you could hypnotise a woman and get her into bed through traditional hypnosis, without coercion.

It is not hypnosis that makes them do what you want, but coercion and compliance, I believe.
Mindpro
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You mean TonyB finally got some training? I wonder why this was kept quiet. I would be very interested in hearing Tony's views of this or how he will twist it. Very interesting. could Tony becoming legit? lol
mindpunisher
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Don't insult Tony "Legit" is a swear word for Tony Smile
TonyB2009
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Justin's training was very good (I can highly recommend it). It will certainly allow me to gain far swifter control over my volunteers. But I have yet to see anything which suggests to me that hypnosis is a distinct state of mind. I still believe it is a matter of compliance. Some people (the guys who whisper off mike, and who play the numbers game) get compliance simply and directly. Others get that compliance in a more subtle way, often not obvious to either them or their volunteers. I believe that often subjects convince themselves afterwards that they have been hypnotised to explain their behaviour.

Innercirclewannabe, the guards in concentration camps did not kill Jews out of fear. Listening to interviews with them makes it clear they became inured to the brutality of the job, and just treated it as work. It is quite shocking actually. And experiments have been done which show that people will issue massive electric shocks to subjects in scientific tests, as long as they are told to by an authority figure. It doesn't need hypnosis to make people do what you want.
quicknotist
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I have heard good things about his training, yes.
Let's be clear, I didn't ask the question to embarrass or expose anybody.
Tony has mentioned at least one other training experience here before.
I was just curious as to whether it had changed Tony's overall opinion on hypnosis. It seems not.

...or is this just another example of what we call conscious justification?!


Quote:
On 2013-10-15 21:27, TonyB2009 wrote:
Justin's training was very good (I can highly recommend it). It will certainly allow me to gain far swifter control over my volunteers. But I have yet to see anything which suggests to me that hypnosis is a distinct state of mind. I still believe it is a matter of compliance. Some people (the guys who whisper off mike, and who play the numbers game) get compliance simply and directly. Others get that compliance in a more subtle way, often not obvious to either them or their volunteers. I believe that often subjects convince themselves afterwards that they have been hypnotised to explain their behaviour.

Innercirclewannabe, the guards in concentration camps did not kill Jews out of fear. Listening to interviews with them makes it clear they became inured to the brutality of the job, and just treated it as work. It is quite shocking actually. And experiments have been done which show that people will issue massive electric shocks to subjects in scientific tests, as long as they are told to by an authority figure. It doesn't need hypnosis to make people do what you want.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2013-10-15 21:27, TonyB2009 wrote:
I have yet to see anything which suggests to me that hypnosis is a distinct state of mind. I still believe it is a matter of compliance.



http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn63......ind.html
"Hypnosis significantly affects the activity in a part of the brain responsible for detecting and responding to errors, says John Gruzelier, a psychologist at Imperial College in London. Using functional brain imaging, he also found that hypnosis affects an area that controls higher level executive functions."

"But under hypnosis, Gruzelier found that the highly susceptible subjects showed significantly more brain activity in the anterior cingulate gyrus than the weakly susceptible subjects. This area of the brain has been shown to respond to errors and evaluate emotional outcomes.'

Have you ever noticed that you always find something in the last place you look?
Have you ever noticed that you have to look in order to see things?
:)
innercirclewannabe
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I think we misunderstood each other TonyB. When you stated the "workers" - I thought you were referring to the prisoners, many of whom, were made take an active role in the gassing of the innocent Jewish people. This was done under extreme duress and some level of fear too.
Of course, the Nazi soldiers done what they thought was their duty, and it fitted in with their twisted logic that this was a "great deed",they were doing for the Fatherland. There was compliance, mixed in with a sick hatred against other human beings that made them carry out such horrendous murders on a mass scale.

Back to hypnosis, I agree that compliance ( along with Suggestion) are the major contributing factors involved in getting a person hypnotised. This has been my experience thus far. However, I am going to attend some seminars in the not so distance future, perhaps after this, my opinion will change
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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