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Sven Rygh
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NB; Hereby stated that it in what I write below, are no secrets as such revealed.
Even if you owned this material, you hardly would find any secrets.
Some details are mentioned though. I find no point in not warning innocent people about this lecture notes.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2003-09-21 21:49, Ian Rowland wrote:
If you want the best book test of all, I suggest you go to Marc Paul's website and buy his lecture notes. Within you will find his book test, which is like flashback except you don't need a flashback book. Do it with any paperback book. Any time. No preparation. No nothing. Just pick the book up and do it.

I had the immense privilege of being one of the first to use this, and I thought it was brilliant even before I started using it. During my recent travels to Australia, Indonesia and Singapore I was using it almost constantly, in formal situations, informal situations and for two media interviews. It's just the best thing since sliced bread.

I will be honest with you, if Marc sold this one secret for £100, I would still recommend you buy it.

Go now:
http://www.marcpaul.com



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe it's just me, but right now I resemble one big quadrupple question mark and feel fooled the heck out of!!
I have listened to all the hoorays and applauds for Marc Paul, and because of the above mentioned strong recommendation, I bought the lecture notes. (thanks G_d I didn't buy the DVD!!)

Asking 20 - twenty- £ sterling for this is nothing but daylight robbery.

First, the Book Test
How in the wide world is it possible to give a recommendation like the above, mentioning that this could be sold for £100??????
This test is nothing but one fragment of one of Richard Busch's non gaffed booktests in Peek Performances. (actually the first peek in the first booktest)Exactely one and a half pages all together, a few lines on the method.
Hey, I'm talking about one single ordinary riffle peak here!!
Marc Paul can in no way claim ownership to this.

I honestly would not believe such to be possible!!

So, The lection notes.
If you read the entire add at Marc's website, you are lead to believe that you are introduced to original one of a kind, out of this world concept with original ideas.

I mentioned the booktest.

The "So You Can Read Minds...Prove It!" sounds cool, eh?
Listen:
"This is a real money making effect. Imagine this. A potential booker phones up and asks you exactly what mentalism is. You answer their question by doing some direct mind reading over the phone revealing their own star sign even though you have never met them!!!"

What it is??? An absolutely ordinary progressive anagram with signs!!!
Just the anagram. No philosophy. No nothing.
I can recommend Doug Dyment's first class book, Sign Language if you should be interested....but not THIS!! No way!!

How about "The Ideal Tossed Deck"
Marc Paul spends one full page to tell what a tossed out deck routine is, concluding with:

"The method is simple. Use a "MASTER MIND DECK" also marketed as the "MONTECRISTO DECK". I can't tell how it works, as it is a marketed effect. However, as far as I know it has never been used as a tossed out deck.
I will give you a clue, and this will make it clear to owners of the pack. When the rubber band is put on the pack, it is xxxx xxxx xx xxx xxx.
You can get a MASTER MIND DECK from Peter Nardi at Alakazam.

Tell him that I send you."

HOORAY!!

The rest is to me more a less a boil together of other peoples work.(not all refered to)
For many of routines, nothing is revealed, except for a few words on Marc Paul's presentation. You have to buy the effects, books etc.from others

Others of the routines aren't close to anything clever, at least one is based on conspiration with spectactors on stage.

The in the add mentioned AAA (Anytime, Any Place,Anywhere) mind reading routine reveals absolutely nothing, but are some word on Marc's thoughts on how he reccommend to logical build an act together based on 4 marketed books/effects of Lorrayne, Berglas, Becker and Bobo. + what Marc calls "An instant Centre Tear"

I always try to communicate in a proper language, but this time I'm tempted on the oposite.

I don't know if the entire DVD is about the same as above mentioned, but at least some of the mentioned so called effects mentioned in the add for the DvD is also included in the lecture notes.

Maybe this is valueable materiale in GB, but I would believe no where else.

Read the add. You'll see that you are lead to believe that this is original extraordinary creations and complete routines by Marc Paul.

Well, think again!
I'd rather recommend "Mickey Mouse Magic Club"

Sven

."....reminding myself of not to listening to just anyone anymore..."
I know for my self that if I ever should stumble over any of Ian Rowland's reccomendations again, I will make sure to stay as far away as possible from what he recommends.

I'd rather trust just any "Honest Joe" used car salesman.
bootweasel
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In defence of Marc Paul,

The book test IS great, I use it, it's simple, bold and effective. If it's not original, then I'm sure that Marc will act responsibly and sort the situation out. Perhaps it would have been more prudent to send him a private message, than to tip the method on a public forum.

Additionally, to say that the spectators are in collusion with Marc, during the direct mind reading effect is untrue. The spectators witness a secondary, lesser effect, which Marc mentions in the notes.

I think the key thing here is that these are lecture notes, reprinted out of popularity. As such I'd expect powerful, if derivative audience tested routines, rather than a collection of original pet effects.

Marc seems like a nice guy to me. I'm sure he'll address your complaints, but I don't think it's really fair to imply his work is 'mickey mouse magic', without giving him a chance to respond to your criticisms.
Sven Rygh
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Quote:
On 2003-12-18 09:35, bootweasel wrote:

The book test IS great, I use it, it's simple, bold and effective. If it's not original, then I'm sure that Marc will act responsibly and sort the situation out.


With all respect, the book test is one single riffle peek. Period.
I guess one can see that my criticism is divided between Marc and Ian Rowland The latter because of the absurd recommendation telling people that this is an effect he easily would price to 100£.
Marc's lecture note is today priced to 20£, about the same as Peek Performances, Peek Encores or an Osterlind DVD.
Even though I find mr Busch's and mr. Osterlinds products underpriced because of the extreme value for money they represent, it would be interesting to hear what price tag mr. Rowland would have put on those products.
Quote:
Additionally, to say that the spectators are in collusion with Marc, during the direct mind reading effect is untrue.


I don't agree with you. 3 out of 4 are told what to think of.

Quote:
I think the key thing here is that these are lecture notes, reprinted out of popularity. As such I'd expect powerful, if derivative audience tested routines, rather than a collection of original pet effects.


He must have reflected about his pricing of theese notes. It's just a short while since he doubled the price.

Quote:
Marc seems like a nice guy to me.


I have no reason to believe that he isn't. I did not refer to Marc as a person, just to what he is marketing.

Sven
owenscott
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Yes, I too was unhappy when I recieved this information. I read it and re-read it. Then I checked the ad description again. Although I don't think I will ever use this at all, I don't think the ad was OVERLY MISLEADING. Not really mind reading if you tell 3 out of the 4 what to think of. Major on stage deal in front of many, many, many people. Still though sopme are going to be "onto" the method and if they talk, then its all reputation damaging. I don't feel that it was a major rip off. Just not something I will ever use. EVER.

Not to sound overly harsh, I never asked for a refund. As long as I look at the ad and it is not misleading then I don't think your entitled to one. Marc e-mailed me to tell me when he sent the package, also didn't charge me extra shipping for oversea's. I don't think I will use the material but that is not to say its not for anybody. Just not for everybody. Now that I see he has a dvd comming out I gotta figure that some are buying it and giving it good reviews. Just not for me though. Book test is good though.
bootweasel
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I seem to recall, the price of the notes changed because they were reprinted at a higher cost than his originals.

And the effect the spectators think they are participating in is your ability to tell who got which card. That's the principle the whole effect rests on. It is DR not IS.

Quote:
20£, about the same as Peek Performances, Peek Encores or an Osterlind DVD


If you can tell me where I can get Peek Performances for less than £40 including UK shipping please PM me, I'll be a happy man.

Quote:
my criticism is divided between Marc and Ian Rowland The latter because of the absurd recommendation telling people that this is an effect he easily would price to 100£


For many people a strong impromptu book test, as performed on the Parkinson show is worth a great deal more than £20. It's a fair comment.

There are plenty of 'rediscoveries' that sell for many times the cost of the book they can be found in. In these cases your attention is drawn to the effectiveness of a previously disregarded method.

If you feel that Marc has sold something that wasn't his to sell, then you ought to PM him and let him know. He obviously believes it is an original effect, which, if you are right, is an honest mistake and he deserves a chance to address it, before you drag his name through the mud.
Bob Baker
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While I have not seen Paul's notes, I know that Ted Karmilovich independently came up with the same method for the book test several years ago.

The real work will appear in Ted's upcoming book along with much of his prodigious and brilliant output. Save your money for that!

Bob

P.S. Have you ever seen Mr. Rowland give a negative review of anything?

P.P.S. And he is an exposer.
Sven Rygh
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Quote:
On 2003-12-18 12:43, bootweasel wrote:
I seem to recall, the price of the notes changed because they were reprinted at a higher cost than his originals.

Compared to Norwegian prices, the production cost should be around US$ 1,-. For your information, Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world.
Quote:
And the effect the spectators think they are participating in is your ability to tell who got which card.

If there is one phenomena that most spectactors know about, it is xxxxxx cxxxs.
In addition, spectactors talk together.
Your point about that the spectactors witness different effects, will pretty soon be known.
Quote:
If you can tell me where I can get Peek Performances for less than £40 including UK shipping please PM me, I'll be a happy man.

You are right, I was wrong, which I wholeheartedly regret. The asking price for Peek Performances is 65$, which with Norwegian exchange resembles 38£, shipping NOT included
However, if you take into consideration what you get when you buy Peek Performances, Marc Paul's notes is extremely overpriced.

Quote:
For many people a strong impromptu book test, as performed on the Parkinson show is worth a great deal more than £20. It's a fair comment.

I hate to admit that I don't know what Parkinson Show is. However, in this matter this is completely irrelevant.
What's relevant is to compare one effects market price with similar effects.
When mr Rowland suggests 100£ for Marc Paul's book test, he put on a price tag that doubles the asking price for Ultimate Flashback and similar.
If you own, or have read Peek Performances, you should know that there are several far more advanced booktests making it possible to reveal several words or lines from different pages in the same reading

Quote:
If you feel that Marc has sold something that wasn't his to sell, then you ought to PM him and let him know. He obviously believes it is an original effect, which, if you are right, is an honest mistake and he deserves a chance to address it, before you drag his name through the mud.

I'd be surprised if an author of books/lecture notes, DVDs etc not are aware of what a mastodont and landmark within our art like Peek Performances contains.
Never the less, marketing material claims responsibility and serious investigations to avoid copying anyone else's work, before you release your own

Sven
Nir Dahan
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Sven,

I also got lecture notes and couldn't believe that someone could pull this off - it is just too bold - it is not even a peek - it is plainly looking there...
I didn't care much about it...

I then had the chance to see the DVD (I didn't want to buy it cause of the poor experience I had) man I changed my mind about this!!! look at marc doing it on the DVD - it wont work on any spec, but if you know your timing it is good. I use it now.

look at the DVD, look at Marc's head movements the whole secret is there.

there are also other cool effects there as well, but that is for another post.

make the effort to watch it performed - it is worth it!!!

Nir
Bill
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Owenscott wrote:
"Not to sound overly harsh, I never asked for a refund. As long as I look at the ad and it is not misleading then I don't think your entitled to one."

Bull Pucky! If you're not satisfied with a product, you, as a consumer, certainly have the right to ask for your money back. They can always say no. But if I'm not satisfied with a product and the seller will not refund my money or make me satisfied, then I will never, ever buy from him again. Period. And I will not hesitate to tell everyone I know about the lousy service I got. Then on the other hand, when I get good service, I am a very loyal customer.

This "once you know the secret, you're stuck" is nonsense! Deal with people who will stand behind their product, whether you know the secret or not. There's several dealers out there that do. Support them.
owenscott
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The first thing I did was go and reread the descriptions of the tricks. I didn't feel that he mislead me so I never asked for money back. I prolly will sell this, I just wont ask him for the money back because I bought what he had explained. I think its fair. Ask my wife if I am afraid of speaking my mind when I have been legitimatly ripped off. (not in this case though)As I have said, I'm sure its good for some but not for me.
Sven Rygh
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Quote:
On 2003-12-18 19:10, Nir Dahan wrote:
Sven,

I also got lecture notes and couldn't believe that someone could pull this off - it is just too bold - it is not even a peek - it is plainly looking there...
I didn't care much about it...

I then had the chance to see the DVD (I didn't want to buy it cause of the poor experience I had) man I changed my mind about this!!! look at marc doing it on the DVD - it wont work on any spec, but if you know your timing it is good. I use it now.

look at the DVD, look at Marc's head movements the whole secret is there.

there are also other cool effects there as well, but that is for another post.

make the effort to watch it performed - it is worth it!!!

Nir



Nir;

About the "Book Test"
Why I reacted, was NOT that the riffle peek can not be done.
On the contrary, I have mentioned several times that it is included as one of the peeks in one of Richard Busch's beautiful booktests in PP.

My comment was about
*That this single peek was introduced an "out of this world" book test, better than most of the rest

*Ian Rowland's (who admits to be a friend of Marcs)absurd recommendation, telling that he would have no problem with to recommending this single peek priced at £100,- (!!)

*That Marc has no ownership to this peek, and mention no sources or creators

*....and the rest of the "routines" in the lecture notes.

My honest opinion is that Marc never should have published this, except for maybe to Ian Rowland and other of his friends.
£20 for the notes is redicolous.

You advise me to watch Marc's DVD.
With all respect, NO WAY do I have any motivation or interest after this "horse d'hoeuvre"

Buying theese notes was a typically impulsive thing to do.The reason was that I was looking for something to add to my booktest routine.
I have only myself to blame for trusting the add and a few peoples recommendations. I never should have.

About claiming a refund,...I actually don't care! I am fed up of the whole thing, and Marc can keep the money. He might need them, and I can afford the loss.

I once said, after having bought rather much of Richard Osterlind's and Richard Busch's work, that I by this had material for years, and didn't need anything more.
Before buying Marc's notes, I should have reminded myself about this, and not be foolish enough to think that someone had something better to offer.

I guess I have used enough space at this topic as I have, and am pulling myself politely out of this discussion.

Regards

Sven
bootweasel
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Quote:
Compared to Norwegian prices, the production cost should be around US$ 1,-. For your information, Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world.


British printing costs are substantially higher than that, particularly for a limited print run.

Quote:
Your point about that the spectactors witness different effects, will pretty soon be known.


All DR effects work on the same principle. I'm not about to debate the pros and cons with you, except to say that this type of effect is used professionally by mentalists including Marc Paul and Derren Brown. The fact remains, it IS a working, professional level effect.

Quote:
Never the less, marketing material claims responsibility and serious investigations to avoid copying anyone else's work, before you release your own


And at £40+ per magic book and marketed mental effect, how can you reasonably expect anybody to do that? You cannot seriously expect someone to pay out £4000+ to research an effect, which may return you a few hundred pounds in profit. The only sensible soloution is to question your peers regarding your effect's originality (which I would guess Marc has done).
Menetekel
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I'm not taking side with Sven here, but I must point out that one of his complaints regarding the book test is the method:

A) It's not new (and on that everyone of us could let go because WHAT is REALLY NEW in Mentalism today?)

B) It's a simple riffle and peek, and, as I understand, in the lecture notes there is nothing more than that. Just the bare mechanics.

Having said that, I've no problems to believe that in the hands of Marc Paul that effect could be awesome!

And Bootweasel... PLEAAAZE... you are on purpose taking words to the extreme (do you think that's clever?)

Sven just said that a professional (as you say Marc Paul is) could have at least known that in PP book there is a similar peek or at least something about the Karmilovich book test (even I know about that!)

Or do you think that such TRUE pros as Max Maven or Richard Osterlind, each time they publish a book really need to do a £4000+ research ???

Maybe... but until they personally confirm that to us, your words have simply no truth in them.
bootweasel
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Quote:
Bootweasel... PLEAAAZE... you are on purpose taking words to the extreme (do you think that's clever?)


Considerably more so than spelling please with a Z.

Quote:
Or do you think that such TRUE pros as Max Maven or Richard Osterlind, each time they publish a book really need to do a £4000+ research


No, they probably have access to a library with £4000+ worth of magic books in it. They also operate in the US, where magic resources cost significantly less than they do in the UK. It's not easy to keep up to date with a magic community that mainly operates in a different country.

The internet has made it much, much easier to be a part of the international magic community. However not everybody has woken up to the digital revolution yet. It was until a few years ago a very difficult task to get hold of any contempory magic books in the UK, let alone specific titles.
Mr Amazing
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On the whole I agree with Sven on his review.

Sure, some new bits here and there, and they are workable, but to, for instance, write up yet another totally basic progressive anagram like this is just... well, if not an insult, pretty darn close.

And, for instance, the Anytime Anyplace Anywhere "routine" was thoughts I'm sure we've all had from the beginning. Basically saying it it good to have some impromptu effects ready to go. Hey that's an idea! He does list his suggested effects (and tells you where to find them), but just search the archives here in the Café and you'll have your own similar list.

His opinions on pre-show work could have been summed up in one sentence ("people talk afterwards and they'll find out, so don't do pre-show") instead of several pages of extremely poorly edited babble; It is a print out of an e-mail from someone
where the
text is written so that every second line is on the
form that
I am writing this in, i.e almost empty lines between
the longer
ones, and without much substance, just like this
babble. Amazing.


Regarding the production cost, I cannot imagine that they are more than a fraction of the total price. It is a comb bound booklet for heavens sake. You make these at home! You don't do a "limited printing" with these, you make them as you get the order. Xerox, staple holes, add the comb spine - finished. However, Mr Paul obviously has a right to put any price he wishes on it. (It does affect the expectations though...)

As I said though, the the effects are workable, but many are just not new and they feel very shallowly explained (if at all).


/Matias
Lord Of The Horses
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PLEAZZZZE, Bootweasel... you really are defending the undefendable! You find that book test (and the other effects) good? I'm really glad for you!

But Matias has nailed it down, perfectly!

So, don't come up with BS about high cost printing and limited edition when you can xerox the book as many times you want for few bucks...

And since I don't live in USA, I have no special connections with magic dealers but I've always bought all the books I needed when they came out on the market (if I wanted to buy them, of course) I don't buy your excuse about not finding books in UK before internet era (and, anyway, the books that Sven has named came up when already existed magic forums in internet)

Matias, as always (well, almost always) you said it better than I could even if I tried (I hate the fact that you master your english better than I do! Smile )
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
bootweasel
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Quote:
As I said though, the the effects are workable, but many are just not new and they feel very shallowly explained (if at all).


They're lecture notes, not a book. I've got a number of lecture notes by various magicians I respect, they're not massively different in standard.

Obviously Marc thought that because using the StarSign effect over the phone helped him secure bookings that others might benefit, not just from the method, but the application. It's not unusual to find that kind of thinking in these kind of notes.

I'm clearly outnumbered here so I'm going to beat a hasty retreat before an angry mob turns up at my house with burning torches...
owenscott
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This has nothing to do with this topic but, I feel the need to reply to bootweasel. If anybody has kids (in the usa ) they prolly know this line.
"Ahhh .. an angry mob. During a time of crisis intellectuals are alwatys the first to go!"
Jimmuy Neutron 2002. A movie that's playing at our house right now. When I read that post I just seen that part in the movie.... too funny.
Lord Of The Horses
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Hey bootweasel, sorry that you had that impression (I can speak for myself only) because while I agree with you that the effects in the book are workable (the few explained at least) I was contesting your internet and high prices / limited edition high costs issues that you brought up in the first place.

But now it seems to me that you did change what you said before about that, infact you wrote:

"They're lecture notes, not a book. I've got a number of lecture notes by various magicians I respect, they're not massively different in standard"


And with that last post of yours, I can fully agree.
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
Mr Amazing
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Quote:
[regarding the shallowness, bootweasel wrote]: They're lecture notes, not a book.

That is a fair comment.

Quote:
...using the StarSign effect over the phone...

Come on - that is mentioned in pretty much any discussion on over-the-phone effects and often in anagram effects. And I'm sure it's been 'published' before, even if I'm too lazy to find sources. I can only imagine that people very new to mentalism are not aware of this application.

I hope it's clear I have nothing personal against anyone. I'm just commenting on the booklet, which I'm not over all satisified with. I did appreciate some of the things though which, for me, made it worth while.

/Matias

P.S Lord o' Horses - thanks for your compliments.
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