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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-23 11:41, Al Angello wrote: Strongly disagree.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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RNK Inner circle 7493 Posts |
Take a look at areas with low crimes rates compared to higher crime rates. The areas with lower crime rates are allowed to carry and have guns. For example- our own Presidents hometown area (no not Kenya where he is originally from) Chicago! They outlawed guns there and look at the DAILY killings. Killings that are ignored by the mainstream media only because it makes the case that areas where guns are not legal have a lower crime rate. Also ignored because it's mainly black on black killings. Can't have that- nothing racially motivated to talk about there. Yes- I do believe there has to be a reform in how, who etc.... gets a license to carry and own a gun. But- we definitely cannot outlaw them. Not a good idea.
RNK
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 10:54, RNK wrote: Do you know whether that's cause or effect? How? It may be that places with strict gun laws encourage predators. It may be, instead, that places with very high crime rates already are the ones most likely to enact strict gun control laws. Quote:
They outlawed guns there and look at the DAILY killings. With out Googling, do you have any idea what gun control measures are in force in Chicago, when they were enacted, what the murder rate is there now, and what it was before those laws went into effect?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
The problem with comparing Chicago's strict gun laws with its high crime rate is significantly complicated by the simple fact that guns are easily obtainable in the surrounding communities and the rest of Illinois.
And my guess is that criminals have access to transportation. |
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RNK Inner circle 7493 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 11:06, LobowolfXXX wrote: You can google it- killing (mass killings) everyday in Chicago. That's not a secret. And as far as the stats. Just google it and you will see. Look at the places with low crime rate and look and see if the members there are allowed to carry guns. Some of it is common sense- if you were a robber, killer etc... and you were going to commit a crime and there were two choices: 1. a place that you KNEW the citizens were allowed to have guns or 2. a place you KNEW citizens were not allowed to have guns. Where would you choose to do your crime? RNK
Check out Bafflingbob.com
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 14:13, RNK wrote: Not really addressing my point at all. It's one thing to say that a place (or places) with high crime rates have strict gun laws. It's another thing entirely to say that the gun laws caused that crime rate. If you're going to assert it in the case of a particular city (like Chicago), you should already know what the crime rate was like in that city before the law(s) was enacted. Maybe (I'm making up numbers and being totally hypothetical here to illustrate my point) 100 people got murdered in Chicago every day, so they adopted strict gun control laws and now as a result, 90 people get murdered there every day. Would Chicago then be a high crime city with strict gun control laws? Yes it would. What would the effect of those laws be? They reduced the murder rate by 10%. I'm not saying that's the case. I'm saying that correlation doesn't imply causation.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 11:53, mastermindreader wrote: That's a problem, but not an insurmountable one, at least in principle; it then becomes important to see what the crime rate is like in those surrounding communities (though that in turn gets complicated by population disparity). (IMO) the salient issue with respect to Chicago (as RNK suggests in his subsequent post) isn't that he's pretending that nobody there can get guns; it's that law-abiding citizens won't have them, and that (arguably) makes the city a more attractive place for criminals to commit crimes. Unless you think that there's a way to make it so that criminals can't get guns in the USA (which seems awfully unlikely), the crux of the argument for more permissive ownership/carry laws is that if you have a gun and don't mind using it in the commission of a crime, wouldn't you rather do so where your potential victim is less likely to be armed? As you point out, criminals DO have access to transportation. I think it's intuitively a good argument. But it's certainly not proven (or provable) via correlational data.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Here's my simple solution-
Everyone has the right to own and carry a firearm provided they buy it legally, it is registered in their name, they have passed a thorough background check and receive mandatory training in its use and safe-keeping. A reasonable limit on the number owned and their capacity should be enforced. Mandatory, greatly increased penalties for breaking these rules should be enacted. (Gang member caught with a gun? See you when you're an OLD man bro.) Law abiding citizens have their rights protected and are able to protect themselves if needed. Criminals will still be able to get guns but when they are caught, as they are in the vast numbers of cases, they are subtracted from society. As far as gun companies and their profit margins are concerned screw em. They are needed an will exist. A natural balance will be found. For the record I am for the smallest possible government. We are running towards a socialist society and I for one am glad I'm old enough not to care. However when speaking about devices that can shoot 90 bullets a minute, or whatever, they should only be in the hands of law enforcement or the military. I know I'm a simpleton. These days it's how most people who run their life based on common sense are labeled.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
You're thinking with common sense again Twister, neither the gun control adherents nor the guns for everyone adherents actually want common sense.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
I know, logic and reason, how old fashioned of me.
The thing that gets me the most about the human race is how we not only make the same mistakes but we make mistakes that others have made, which we see the consequences others have suffered. Yet we make them all the same. Definition of insanity anyone? I have a 13 year old boy. I am not one of those parents who think that they need to be this all knowing hero to my child. Throughout his life I have never hidden any of the mistakes I've made, both big and small. I've told him about them hoping that he would spare himself the consequences, especially the lost time and money. Although he can see the effects in my life he insists on trying some of these things himself. He's a smart kid, gifted school, good grades, surrounded by other smart kids, but still..... Maybe it's in the human genome. Whatever it is the law of cause and effect is constant. Eventually something will give and society will go through one of it's periodic adjustments. This time the destructive power available to all at little expense may prove to be our undoing. The world can not exist as half property, half loot. The moral decay, especially in this country, is a disgrace. Like I said I'm old enough to hope that things will hold together while I'm here. As for my son I hope he becomes strong enough, on all levels, to be able to navigate such a future.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 14:33, LobowolfXXX wrote: Let's compare Chicago, then, to New York City. NYC has very strict gun laws, but so do the surrounding communities and states. And the crime rate in New York has declined dramatically over the last two decades. While once considered a dangerous place it is now often rated as one of the safest cities in America. So I have to question the argument that criminals go where the gun laws are the strictest, because the New York situation clearly refutes that. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I don't think they'll relocate on that basis, e.g. From Chicago to New York. But say you live in Minnesota and your crime of choice is residential burglary or home invasion robberies. And further say that there are very strict gun possession laws in Saint Paul, and very permissive ones in Minneapolis.
Where are you going to work?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
That's easy. If I was a burglar I'd never go armed and I'd work wherever the richest people live. If there are loose gun laws in the area I'd be sure to steal their guns, though. Pretty easy to fence.
:eek: |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I imagine there are plenty of rich people in both cities...I think it's easy, too; I'd take the one where any residents who happened to be present or come home were less likely to be armed.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2885 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-04 10:54, RNK wrote: The thing is, were these areas lawless and filled with shootings and murder before the laws allowing people to carry guns were enacted? Were the areas where guns are outlawed quiet and peaceful before guns were outlawed? If not, then your point is frankly, moot.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
RNK wrote: I hope that was a joke, because if you actually believe that birther crap, your posts aren't even worth reading, let alone responding to. At least show a modicum of respect to the office of President. Please explain, though, the very low gun crime rate in New York City, which also has very strict gun laws. If only things were as simplistic as you seem to think they are. |
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EsnRedshirt Special user Newark, CA 895 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-06 00:36, LobowolfXXX wrote: Home invasion? Bah, I'd go white collar. Embezzlement has a higher payoff for less physical risk.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.
* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-06 00:36, LobowolfXXX wrote: Not if your goal was to steal guns, which is how many illegal weapons find their way to the streets. But I'm still wondering why people use Chicago to make the point that strict gun laws don't reduce crime, when the New York City experience can be interpreted just as validly to prove the opposite. (Which is why they never mention New York.) |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-05 15:00, LobowolfXXX wrote: I think this is a bit of an over simplification. I can only go by the numbers for New Mexico when I say this. The overwhelming majority of property crime is crime of opportunity. It's not a crime with a possible violent alterior motive of some kind. It's a guy walking down the street who notices your garage open and there's power tools laying on the floor. It's the punk kids who noticed your screen door was open on your porch and you'd just left to get gas around the corner etc. What Chicago is experiencing is an overwhelming level of violent crime. While I believe their gun laws play a role in supporting the criminal mind, I don't think they're the be all and end all of it. |
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-07 22:31, mastermindreader wrote: I think stop and frisk has played a larger role in that than som may give it credit for. A high school friend of mine lives in the Bronx and believes S&F has definitely impacted the number of gun related homicides. Apparently this new mayor isn't a fan of S&F and may cut it off. If that's the case, and the drop in gun crime is related to S&F, then we should see the homicide rate begin increasing. I also don't think New York is a strong counter example. While their gun homicide rate was at a record low in the last year or so, they've had arcane gun control laws on the books for decades. And the homicide rate hasn't always been so low. |
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