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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
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On 2013-11-01 08:08, Bard wrote: I never said anything about how much you may or may not charge. What does that have to do with anything? I'm sorry you're unclear about setting values, ethics, morals, and priorities. That's your issue, not mine. Quote:
The concept of morality, as I showed, has nothing to do with this discussion for you. For you, the key point is that revealing fake psychics is "for our benefit." That's not moralistic, that's capitalistic. And as I wrote, honesty feels good. WRONG AGAIN! I have no captialistic agenda whatsoever, I rarely do any sort of promotion or advertising for my work and I'm certainly not out to "weed out" the pile of Readers in any community I may be working in. As I've stated, I've only exposed and helped prosecute about a half-dozen hacks that preyed on the public, how is that a capitalistic agenda?[/quote} But that's EXACTLY what you wrote. You said it was for "to our benefit." If you don't mean financially to our benefit, how does spending time doing this benefit us? You have no capitalistic agenda? Then why do you work at all? Quote:
You share a defeatist attitude that because problems are huge you can't do anything about them. Actually, that is a choice, and it's not that you can't, it's that you choose not to. The way large problems are solved is the same way smaller problems are solved: one step at a time. WRONG. . . YET AGAIN I never said that I don't work towards an issue. I've been at the front when it's come to numerous Human Issues but there is only so much of me to go around and I've yet to have a non-profit situation feed me and pay my rent.[/quote] But that's EXACTLY what you wrote. Here are your very words: "World Hunger and Human Suffering are massive issues that I (or anyone) can't be effective at dealing with because it is so huge." Quote:
You're right. One complaint isn't always enough to get the police to act. But no complaints will definitely get no action. So how do you start: one step at a time. Actually, I start when I hear about the first handful of complaints surrounding a given individual or group and then I start looking deeper at that situation to see if there really is something fowl about. I don't manipulate people in order to generate crime reports though I will encourage those that have been victimized to submit letters of complaint to authorities as well as the local BBB and COC.[/quote] LOL! Do you really think the BBB or CoC will do anything about someone who isn't a dues-paying member? Sorry, they don't. And if there's a "handful of complaints" why aren't the police or sheriff doing something about it? Perhaps you should be working to improve those organizations. Quote:
I completely reject your "holier than thou" attitude. You are spending your time, you claiming, looking out for others. In reality, as you wrote, you're just doing for "our" (i.e., YOUR) benefit. Why are you having such a hard time dealing with your own issues? This isn't about morality as you claim you "can't" do anything to help so many others. Why are you trying to deceive others that this is about morals? Why are you trying to deceive yourself? Are you justifying your actions so you can ignore those who suffer? Well thank you for YOUR OPINION. . . it's 100% wrong and deliberately argumentative. I did not place myself on some kind of moral high ground, you did. . . quite possibly because you can't or won't stand-up for the consumer in the same ways I have over the past quarter century or so. Because of your seeming lack of a spine to do this and to help educate folks in what to look for, you are attacking me, my moral character and intent. Human Decency? Hmmm, so by your argument I should do nothing to help protect or aid those that have been victimized by predators, or to help people see the bigger picture when it comes to what being Psychic is and isn't -- a more pragmatice perspective on things. [/quote] Like I wrote, focusing your time trying to help people who have lost $5 for a reading (with a fake, not you) as compared to working to end hunger and poverty for the people you claim to care about indicates that your priorities might need rethinking. Quote:
But you are right, more and more young people are stepping up to the plate and decrying selfishness such as you are demonstrating. So how exactly am I being "selfish" -- by not letting the rest of the magic community in on the work I do?[/quote] No, I clearly stated what you don't seem willing to acknowledge: You attempt to debunk frauds in order to achieve a benefit for yourself. That's known as "trading on human misery" and I would call it very selfish. Quote:
I've shared my views and my philosophy over much of the past decade and received positive acclaim for it. . . and for my selflessness, mind you.[/çuote] While I agree with the concept that simply believing something without doing something about it is meaningless, you seem to have missed what I was saying. You wrote, " how is trying to live an honorable life and do honorable things, so wrong?" I was trying to point out that "trying" is not of value. Doing is. For you, for me, for all, I would advise "Live and honorable life and do honorable things." Trying implies failure and not doing either. The problem in your immediate statement is that you intend to stay doing what you're doing now until you "know for sure" that you've "gone off course." The thing is, for anyone, when they spend a lot of time and effort into doing something they think is right, they simply will not allow themselves to see when they've "gone off course." They have too much invested in the status quo. That goes for me, you, everyone. Quote:
Nope. I'm not looking for an argument at all. You presented what you think you were doing and I've shown you that you're not doing as well as you think. Your response is to defend your "trying" and and not even see that your defensiveness with a claim of superior morality isn't being honest. You haven't shown anything of the sort, you've shot your mouth off with a load of assumptions and patted yourself on the back for trying to paint me as being something that's untrue. My "defensiveness . . . so if I were to say nothing and ignore your proding I'd proven myself a humble and honest man in your mind?[/quote] Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You have too much time, effort, and money invested in doing what you're doing and you won't allow yourself to see when you have "gone off course." Quote:
NOT! You'd twist that around so as to show me a coward with strawman ideas. . . you simply wanted a confrontation in order to show the world how arrogant you are and how you can jump to conclusions that have no meat on the proverbial bone when it comes to fact about me, what I do in my work and why. I never accused you of being a coward. Most people are never willing to face who they are. That doesn't make them cowards, just normal. Not special with moral superiority; just normal. You're a wonderfully normal person and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Most people want to be normal and have normalcy in their lives. For them, it's a good thing. The only thing that saddens me is when people who are exceedingly normal think their normalcy is in some way special. It's not. In this case you're not morally superior to me and I'm certainly not morally superior to you. |
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dmkraig Inner circle 1949 Posts |
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On 2013-11-01 09:56, CarlZen wrote: A logical comment. Thank you. Many years ago I read a biography of Geller that said he was given his powers by aliens from the planet Hoovah! Really. Now, I can just imagine this race of people who had built space ships and mastered space travel discussing how they should inform us they are here. They're sitting around a table, saying, We could just land at the U.N. We could stop all power for awhile like in one of their movies. We could end war, poverty, and disease. For hours they debate, and finally one of them says, "We could give Uri Geller the power to bend spoons." And they all agree. I don't think so........ |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 13:36, dmkraig wrote: So now we need to define simple words? Here is the dictionary definition of "wish": 1. A desire, longing, or strong inclination for a specific thing. 2. An expression of a desire, longing, or strong inclination; a petition. 3. Something desired or longed for. Quote:
Mathematicians, logicians, philosophers, and reasonable people would not be confused about the difference between merely thinking of something and wishing for a specific outcome, so you have a ways to go before you can "stand with them." Quote:
But they'd be smart enough to ask for your definition before assuming their definition matches yours. Otherwise, you could be saying the same words but mean something different. This is a technique used by politicians all the time. Use words in ways that are not accepted by all and get people to assume you agree with them when you do not. I think most children know what wishing means. I really am perplexed as to why you're struggling with the concept. Why do you keep harping on this? What exactly is your agenda here? Quote:
A claim of levitation would indeed be an extraordinary claim, in the sense that to observe an actual instance of "real" levitation would be quite extraordinary, no? Quote:
In YOUR world it might be extraordinary, but in the lives of others it might not be extraordinary at all. That's why I've asked for a definition of extraordinary. Why do you refuse to give it? Who's lives are you referring to? Who would witness a "real" levitation and NOT consider it extraordinary? Please tell us where real levitations occur so frequently as to render them unremarkable. And since you seem to be flummoxed by another word, here you go: ex·traor·di·nar·y (k-strôrdn-r, kstr-ôr-) adj. 1. Beyond what is ordinary or usual: extraordinary authority. 2. Highly exceptional; remarkable: an extraordinary achievement Quote:
Or do you consider an act of "real" levitation to be no big deal - just an ordinary everyday occurrence. The David Blaine reference was to demonstrate how people can be fooled - really fooled, into thinking they witnessed something supernatural. And that only a higher standard of testing his claims (higher than mere eyewitness testimony) would reveal the trickery behind his feats. Quote:
What I think is irrelevant. YOU"RE the one talking about "extraordinary" so you have to define your terms. See above. Quote:
There has been no shifting of topics, as the analogies I have presented have been germane to the discussion. So, David Blaine and how we would evaluate claims of those who witnessed his feats certainly has more relevance to the topic at hand than your "there are children starving all over the world" diversions. So, what does starving children have to do with any of this??? Quote:
Yeah, there has. Blaine had nothing to do with this. And now you STILL won't comment on what seems to be your total lack of priorities when it comes to "caring about people." You seem to be saying, "I'll spend hours and hours revealing that a guy bending a spoon is a fake while ignoring the people who are really suffering." I thought this thread was about spoon bending. The Blaine analogies have already been explained and are quite germane to the discussion. On the other hand, what does starving children have to do with the topic of spoon bending? Quote:
By the way, strawmen arguments and derisive comments (such as your continued use of "pseudo skeptics" and, previously, "Randi Wannabes") is a common tactic of those who are locked into a dogmatic worldview and can only argue through emotion and not with logic. Quote:
Ah, the way you bring up Blain and refuse to answer simple and straightforward questions, misrepresent my requests for simple answers, and act defensively when confronted with doubts about your claims based on your own comments, I can see why that bothers you. I didn't label you as a pseudo-skeptic or Randi Wannabe. I didn't say you were locked into a dogmatic world view. Somehow, this seems to have struck a nerve. The tactic you've chosen seems to be to deflect from the questions at hand and to continually demand definitions of simple words. Why? We can do that indefinitely and get nowhere. But then again, maybe that's all you've got. And what exactly are my "claims"?? Yes, let's answer simple questions. That's what I've been saying all along! Like, who here believes that some people have the ability to bend spoons using nothing but their minds?? No need to deflect it to a discussion of semantics and definitions. And there's no right or wrong answer either. Yes, I am a skeptic, but I'm genuinely curious to know whether some here believe that mental spoon bending is possible and if there is one person in the world that folks consider to be the most prolific "real" spoon bender. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
In my opinion, there is no significant evidence at present for unassisted macro-PK (which would include spoon bending).
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 20:31, mastermindreader wrote: Why, thank you Bob! You are indeed a gentleman and a scholar! And wherever we may disagree (which I don't think is much at all), you certainly always have my respect. Ron :)
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I'm no gentleman!
But, as I indicated earlier, I agree with those who state that GESP (general ESP) has been proven by normal scientific standards. The question remains, though, as to what is meant by "extraordinary proof." Whether GESP is usable or reliable is a different question entirely. |
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts |
[quote]On 2013-11-01 09:56, CarlZen wrote:
Spoons are for eating food with not to be bent ... [/quote I,forgot what this thread was even about! If they used metal Sporks...We,would be on page ten by now!
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Bard Loyal user 223 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 14:06, dmkraig wrote: But that's EXACTLY what you wrote. Here are your very words: "World Hunger and Human Suffering are massive issues that I (or anyone) can't be effective at dealing with because it is so huge." Quote:
You're right. One complaint isn't always enough to get the police to act. But no complaints will definitely get no action. So how do you start: one step at a time. Actually, I start when I hear about the first handful of complaints surrounding a given individual or group and then I start looking deeper at that situation to see if there really is something fowl about. I don't manipulate people in order to generate crime reports though I will encourage those that have been victimized to submit letters of complaint to authorities as well as the local BBB and COC.[/quote] LOL! Do you really think the BBB or CoC will do anything about someone who isn't a dues-paying member? Sorry, they don't. And if there's a "handful of complaints" why aren't the police or sheriff doing something about it? Perhaps you should be working to improve those organizations. Quote:
I completely reject your "holier than thou" attitude. You are spending your time, you claiming, looking out for others. In reality, as you wrote, you're just doing for "our" (i.e., YOUR) benefit. Why are you having such a hard time dealing with your own issues? This isn't about morality as you claim you "can't" do anything to help so many others. Why are you trying to deceive others that this is about morals? Why are you trying to deceive yourself? Are you justifying your actions so you can ignore those who suffer? Well thank you for YOUR OPINION. . . it's 100% wrong and deliberately argumentative. I did not place myself on some kind of moral high ground, you did. . . quite possibly because you can't or won't stand-up for the consumer in the same ways I have over the past quarter century or so. Because of your seeming lack of a spine to do this and to help educate folks in what to look for, you are attacking me, my moral character and intent. Human Decency? Hmmm, so by your argument I should do nothing to help protect or aid those that have been victimized by predators, or to help people see the bigger picture when it comes to what being Psychic is and isn't -- a more pragmatice perspective on things. [/quote] Like I wrote, focusing your time trying to help people who have lost $5 for a reading (with a fake, not you) as compared to working to end hunger and poverty for the people you claim to care about indicates that your priorities might need rethinking. Quote:
But you are right, more and more young people are stepping up to the plate and decrying selfishness such as you are demonstrating. So how exactly am I being "selfish" -- by not letting the rest of the magic community in on the work I do?[/quote] No, I clearly stated what you don't seem willing to acknowledge: You attempt to debunk frauds in order to achieve a benefit for yourself. That's known as "trading on human misery" and I would call it very selfish. Quote:
I've shared my views and my philosophy over much of the past decade and received positive acclaim for it. . . and for my selflessness, mind you.[/çuote] While I agree with the concept that simply believing something without doing something about it is meaningless, you seem to have missed what I was saying. You wrote, " how is trying to live an honorable life and do honorable things, so wrong?" I was trying to point out that "trying" is not of value. Doing is. For you, for me, for all, I would advise "Live and honorable life and do honorable things." Trying implies failure and not doing either. The problem in your immediate statement is that you intend to stay doing what you're doing now until you "know for sure" that you've "gone off course." The thing is, for anyone, when they spend a lot of time and effort into doing something they think is right, they simply will not allow themselves to see when they've "gone off course." They have too much invested in the status quo. That goes for me, you, everyone. Quote:
Nope. I'm not looking for an argument at all. You presented what you think you were doing and I've shown you that you're not doing as well as you think. Your response is to defend your "trying" and and not even see that your defensiveness with a claim of superior morality isn't being honest. You haven't shown anything of the sort, you've shot your mouth off with a load of assumptions and patted yourself on the back for trying to paint me as being something that's untrue. My "defensiveness . . . so if I were to say nothing and ignore your proding I'd proven myself a humble and honest man in your mind?[/quote] Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You have too much time, effort, and money invested in doing what you're doing and you won't allow yourself to see when you have "gone off course." Quote:
NOT! You'd twist that around so as to show me a coward with strawman ideas. . . you simply wanted a confrontation in order to show the world how arrogant you are and how you can jump to conclusions that have no meat on the proverbial bone when it comes to fact about me, what I do in my work and why. I never accused you of being a coward. Most people are never willing to face who they are. That doesn't make them cowards, just normal. Not special with moral superiority; just normal. You're a wonderfully normal person and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Most people want to be normal and have normalcy in their lives. For them, it's a good thing. The only thing that saddens me is when people who are exceedingly normal think their normalcy is in some way special. It's not. In this case you're not morally superior to me and I'm certainly not morally superior to you. [/quote] I'm not going to play your game and there's certainly NOTHING rational about it; your arguments are more assumptions & opinions. My morality and integrity when it comes to how I treat my fellow being are perfectly fine and from what I know from the majority of those who know me, pretty much up there on the high mark, so I'm going to trust the greater voice in this case vs. that of someone that loves to split hairs and create problems and that seems to be your sole agenda in that I've seen nothing in your posts that have to do with the actual topic. . . something you're pulled me far enough away from and so it's time for me to get back to it rather than be the mouse to your cat. . . for the sake of your own ego-driven amusement. |
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gregg webb Inner circle 1564 Posts |
This is some thread ! I and others think that it is good for magic and mentalism if the public thinks it is real (as long as no one is robbing someone or giving medical advice) therefore the public seeing all this is probably not the best. We should say magic is real with a 'twinkle in our eyes'. Even someone like Bob Cassidy says they believe in the real thing 'in case it happens spontaneously (meaning "the real thing") during a show. Does this mean he really really believes in the real thing or is he just conditioning himself to act like he believes so the audience senses it. Doug Henning really believed the real thing could happen and the audience could tell and felt a certain wonder because of that.
I know the Penn and Teller view...it is charlatanism to say it is real, but do we have to tell the audience it isn't real and then expect them to enjoy our mentalism show ? Plus I happen to think that believers will believe no matter what we say anyway, but it sure was an interesting thread. Regards, Gregg Webb |
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MagisterFreud Regular user The 18 135 Posts |
I've had the experience, like most of us have, of believers contradicting me if I said it was all trickery, and skeptics hounding me for an admission of fakery if I tried to keep the mystery alive. I like how Aziz Ansari says "I don't say it's real, I don't say it's not real." He says he likes to get people to suspend their ideas, and I think this is a much needed attitude on both sides. So many magicians feel the need to attack any beliefs that aren't rationalist materialist ideas. There are other things as important as truth and falsehood-- like whether ideas are enjoyable, useful, etc. Ideas don't need to be true to be useful and ideas that are not true are not always harmful.
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Bard Loyal user 223 Posts |
Dunninger pointed out that you will always have believers and cynics and it's not our job to appeal to either one of them as anything other than a showman; our money is made from those that are not on the fringes, who have a curiosity and simply wish to be ENTERTAINED via our demonstrations.
Another thing I recall that Dunninger and others encouraged is that we neither admit to nor deny having special abilities but allow the patrons to believe as they will. Far too often I've had rude magicians call in during radio performances, screaming about me being a fake, etc. Proving to the world that wannabe magic types are more than willing to make a total a** of themselves if it will give them 5 minutes of fame. . . they have little to no respect for what we do and more importantly, they don't understand (or refuse to understand) that Mentalism and what makes it effective is 180 degrees away from what makes magic work. . . we might incorporate certain skills and effects that come form the magic vaults but we do not (should not) treat them as "tricks" but more in the form of a supposition -- experiments of demonstrations as we find things worded in the older books. When it comes to the creation of belief, especially on the air waves, it can sometimes prove costly; I nearly got sued one summer by a gent who owned a faulty Rolex. Seems that his brand new watch stopped during my radio broadcast in which I told people to place a clock or watch near the radio. . . such things seem to be a common event in my world. . . :-( |
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PhilDean Elite user 445 Posts |
I had a person recently tell me that spoons were bent using friction from rubbing your fingers against the steel and that was the secret and he could do it himself. Strangely when given the opportunity he couldn't replicate this claim. Yet he will still tell you the secret is 'friction'. It's interesting that so many people wish to challenge their intelligence with this kind of entertainment yet so many (including eager performing types) walk away with the wrong impressions.
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
Amazing how a simple query (remember the OP who apparently never returned?) can set off a fire storm like this one. I have personally spent decades debating this and frankly I am done doing so. But I will make a few comments.
First, the OP said he was near Duke and thought it might be interesting to attend a paid spoon bending event. BTW these funds are used to support Rhine marketing if anyone cares. Second, it was suggested that, at minimum this was an opportunity to observe the psychological aspects of believers in action. I concur this is a wonderful opportunity of the sort. It is also a chance to see how people product these phenomena. You might even discover the "method" is unexplainable. Third, this phenomenon was by no means debunked. There are literally thousands of groups of people who did this spontaneously in the past decades who are in no way involved in chicanery and have no training whatsoever in the trick methods we all take for granted. It is understandable that a trickster would always believe this had to be the explanation. I recently had a conversation with a PEA award-winner who displayed this exact dogmatic mindset (neither Bob Cassidy nor Banachek). Fourth, modern theoretical physics teaches us that reality is far more bizarre than we ever imagined. Common sense experience is no guide to the legitimacy of anomalies. Psi is actually predicted not excluded from modern physics. And materialism was invalidated as the FULL measure of reality about a century ago in science. Yet cynics continue to push materialistic arguments as they try to argue away from a position of ignorance. So the opportunity should be taken by any working mentalist to see how the other half lives. You might just discover that what you do has an interesting unexpected basis. And, at minimum you will probably get some great ideas for patter and presentation in future performances.
John
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bremen79 Regular user Boston 116 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-17 20:36, jstreiff wrote: No it is not, I am sorry Sir.
Francesco
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance" Jon Stewart |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
And yet, spoonbending is still not paranormal.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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geraldbelton New user Durham, NC 63 Posts |
Jstreiff,
Thank you for bringing this back around to my original query. I'v been sort of half-following this thread as I wasn't overly interested in all the arguing. I did attend the event and met some very interesting people. I even purchased an item at the auction... it's a Rhine center hat autographed by some of the biggest names in the field of parapsychology, including Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell. My own very skeptical wife managed to bend her spoon, and is convinced that it became "soft" and required very little pressure to bend. Watching her and other people doing this was an education. I did get some presentation ideas. And a cool "Got ESP?" bumper sticker for my car! |
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Jon_Thompson Inner circle Darkest Cheshire 2404 Posts |
"What mighty contests rise from trivial things" - Alexander Pope
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-11-19 14:51, geraldbelton wrote: Huh.... You had a fun time, got some insight, and even some cool swag. Who could have predicted that? Quote: Amazing. Was this paranormal?
On 2013-10-26 14:26, Tom Cutts wrote: |
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