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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
I love creating my own effects. Recently I've been working on a card effect, a rubber chicken finds the childs picture card from a KFC bucket.
The idea of the KFC bucket came from wolfs sword chicken, but I didn't want cards flying about someones living room. So I've simplified it and the method is very simple. I've made my own deck of cards, the force card is a toilet (the rest of the pictures are animals). This came from seeing Tommy James' s Potty time. The toilet provides some humourous interplay but in a different way to Tommy's. Have I stolen or developed a new routine fairly. Would buying Potty time for example give me more right to use a toilet picture card? |
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Gerry Walkowski Inner circle 1450 Posts |
Personally, I don't know why you even need a toilet card to do the trick you're describing. It sounds like you're on you way to creating a good effect, so why even bother to use Tommy's idea.
Sure, you could buy Tommy's routine and then do whatever you want to do, as long as you're not reselling his trick. I have to say, I'm just not a fan of any type of toilet humor that involves diapers, underwear, toilet plungers, etc. These types of effects will never sell you as a "class act." Don't run when no one is chasing you. Gerry |
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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
When I show the animal cards the children impersonate the animal so I can guess what is on the card. E.g they roar and I guess lion etc.
After a few goes they see a toilet, make a flushing sound. I don't recognise the noise so ask questions "is it scary? Would I put my head in it's mouth?" And so on. The use of the toilet adds comedy interaction, that is all. Originally it was going to be a pair of underwear which works just as well but I had trouble getting a good image. |
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Wes Holly Special user Cincinnati, OH, USA 644 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-10-27 06:29, Harry Patter wrote: I say "fairly" & kudos to you for taking what you like from other ideas and discarding what you don't. The toilet card is a generic idea. So, unless you've somehow created an exact replica of Tommy's image (assuming his is an original), you're good. Consider other real world examples - I can make my own all purpose household cleaner without paying royalties to Lysol. If I were using their exact formula and then selling it, I would be in trouble. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Christopher T Magician from his super secret sessions video has that exact same routine except the cards. You are adding nothing to what Christopher T Magician shows on his download.
Now you know.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
Sorry, but I have never heard of christopher t.
I doubt his routine is the same somehow, except the bucket and chicken. My chicken is on a lazy tong mechanism. Is his? I don't really want to buy to find out. Also, I think the cards do add something to the routine. |
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
I guess the best person to answer this question is me in the specific case.
As long as your routine does not involve a chicken that is gimmicked like a card sword...then you are good! I have created a ton of effects in just ten years. With the exception of 3 or 4 effects, they are all derivative of something in someway or another. Nobody has established what the "rule" is that defines a trick as "new" but for the most part...common sense will tell you. So make it yours, have some fun and make them laugh! Chance Wolf Wolfs Magic
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
What makes an idea original? The prop, the effect, the presentation, or something else?
Chance, you are looking at the mechanics rather the the trick. This makes sense, since your business is building physical props. Is that what makes something original? Off the top of my head (which doesn't have much else, as you can see from my avatar) I can probably come up with 10 ways to make a card appear in a chicken's mouth. I have never seen your prop but I assume it uses the standard e________c gimmick. However, I see Harry's questions as different. He is interested in knowing if he is stealing an idea, a concept. It seems to me, Chance, that you feel he would be stealing if he uses the same prop (gimmick) in a different way. Others might say one is stealing if he creates the same effect but with a different prop. My take is, in this case it doesn't matter. As long as Harry is making something for his own use, it's not a big deal if the concept if similar to someone else's. Once he starts marketing them, then I would start to look for infringement of intellectual property rights (and even then, if one did not take proper legal precautions to protect their idea, well ... all bets are off). Saúde! Mark |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Unless someting is protected by patent, trademark, or copyright Harry is not doing anything illegal
The problem with this issue is creator's not doing what they can to legally protect their work, especially props an gimmicks. Chance Wolf, are your props legally protected by law? I know if I was capable of building such beautiful props I'd make sure I had legal protection.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
I agree with you in principle, Danny, but the reason small-time magic builders don't protect their stuff is that it's an expensive proposition. So expensive that it's counter-productive. I don't know about design protection, however. That is different from a patent. Still, it's a double-edged sword. Magic builders want the protection and will cry "theif!" but don't follow the laws to actually protect themselves.
There is a general assumption of self-regulation within the magic community, which I think is far more than we probably want to get into here. It's been argued ad nauseum and never really gets us anywhere. Seiradewa! Mark |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
You can't legally copyright or patent an 'idea' But that doesn't mean it's not considered stealing
if you just take an idea someone else created. Why not simply ask those you got the idea from? If it were me, I would talk to Chance and Tommy explaining they inspired me and ask for their permission. Even when you don't legally need permission, getting it will clear you of all charges later. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Very true. The last thing you want to do is have the magic community turn against you.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
Thank you Chance. It is great to get your view. My chicken is quite different, I may post a picture later.
In addition, I wouldn't be comfortable copying anything even if it was just for my own use, to me that is still stealing. If I can't buy a routine or prop then I can't use it. I'm not bothered by the legal side really, more my morals which are stricter and cheaper to up hold. I liked the premise of the Sword Chicken, but it doesn't fit into my regular show so I made something which does. The same with Potty time, I liked the toilet card element but the routine wasn't quite what I was looking for. I will try and contact Tommy and Chance directly, to praise them on great products if nothing else. but I was interested in the general view of how you develop routines and ideas too. And when you consider yourself to be sailing too close to someone else's act. |
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Chance Wolf Inner circle 2425 Posts |
Danny,
I cannot patent any of my ideas for the exact reasons Starrpower/Mark suggested. It is ridiculously expensive to patent anything and very time consuming. In most cases, if not all, it would cost more than I would ever make on the item. So,,that leaves us with the good old fashioned "Ethics". Unfortunately ethics are subjective. So...the secret is simple. Create the trick. Release it as soon as it is ready. Sell as many as you can before the rip offs come out of the woodwork. Then move on to the next trick and hope that most folks will buy the original. In most cases the rip offs are lack luster in quality and the folks who buy them would never pay the price for the original so no sales lost. I have been incredibly lucky over the years to have very few "rip off" situations and most were handled calmly from both ends. Tom nailed it. The BEST thing to do is to simply ASK the creator for permission. You may be surprised at the results. Chance
Creator of Wacky Wolf Productions & Fine Collectibles
A DECADE of building Magic and we're just getting started! http://www.wolfsmagic.com |
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
May I add, Chance, that your quality is a form of protection, Your integrity is a form of protection. I know that I can build a nice prop for myself, but even at your "outrageous" prices (tongue in cheek) would probably spend more in time, experimentation, and materials than to simply buy the blasted thing. And if it went wrong, who could I turn to for help? Sometimes, this even goes for cheaper props. I used a cheap-as-can-be $20 "blooming bouquet" for 20 years before replacing it with another. I could never build one for that!
If Harry's is an ethical dilemma, as he says, nobody can answer that but him. Gayola! Mark |
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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
I'mstruggling to load an image, so I have used my avatar to show my chicken.
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Starrpower Inner circle 4070 Posts |
If it's small enough, use the attachment button below.
Otherwise, you can save it somewhere online (to a site like Photobucket) and they create a cut & paste code that will place it. Alternately, you can use the IMAGE tags to place the picture here if the pic is somewhere on the web. Image tags are as follows (I can't simply type them or the site will think I am trying to place an image): a bracket [ inside of which you place the letters IMG, and then a closing bracket ] Then paste the location of your image Then close it with a bracket [ inside of which you place slash / the letters IMG, and then a closing bracket ] |
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cwbny Loyal user 211 Posts |
It's funny you bring this up. My friend works at New York Law School, and he just told me they're doing a symposium later this year on law & magic. They'll have speakers talking about this exact subject. I plan on going because I find the subject really interesting. There are two copy-able aspects to an effect/routine - the method and the basic story or plot. I'm curious what a panel of lawyers will say about it.
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MonsterMagic Special user 517 Posts |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
[quote]On 2013-10-27 07:32, Gerry Walkowski wrote:
Personally, I don't know why you even need a toilet card to do the trick you're describing. It sounds like you're on you way to creating a good effect, so why even bother to use Tommy's idea. Sure, you could buy Tommy's routine and then do whatever you want to do, as long as you're not reselling his trick. I have to say, I'm just not a fan of any type of toilet humor that involves diapers, underwear, toilet plungers, etc. These types of effects will never sell you as a "class act." Don't run when no one is chasing you. Gerry There's a guy in NYC who also think toilet humor is WONDERFUL FOR KIDS. I worked with him on a Saturday Matinee at Abbotts. YUK! I totally agree with Gerry. Be a CLASS ACT!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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