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Mind Guerrilla
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Quote:
On 2013-11-13 20:39, lamo1994 wrote:
I have seen a number of tv magicians who have walked up to people in the street and said "i want you to think of a friends name" and then they reveal the name of that person.

It may have more to do with the "magic of television" than with any traditional mentalism methods. If you can get a chance to view an episode of JONATHAN CREEK called "The Seer Of The Sands," you'll see a way to accomplish a TV mentalism feat similar to the one you describe (but using a number instead of a name).
John C
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Again, another situation where one needs to know the personalities of the posters to be able to analyze the context.
The ULTIMATE Routine Series: rebirth soon!
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2013-11-14 20:33, eSamuels wrote:
Tony,

lamo1994's question was answered about as well as it could be, by Bard, in an early post in this thread.
My post was intended as light-hearted and by no means directed at the OP.

Being accused of "bullying" (assuming that you directed that comment at me), seems a tad inflammatory.

e

The comment was not aimed at you, Eric. I got that what you posted was funny. The original poster probably got that too. But newbies and strangers are torn up and shredded on this forum. We all know that.

When beginners ask me whether they should join the local magic club I always say no. Too many magicians are ***s and they only hold you back. This forum is a perfect demonstration. There are some great posters, willing to help. I don't mean reveal - just point people in the right direction. And there are plenty of posters with their heads so far up their own arses they haven't seen daylight in years.

What would be so wrong about pointing beginners at a few basic texts and leaving them alone? If the original poster is idly curious and gets thirteen steps, then leaves it on his book shelf for years unread, what harm has that done any of us? And if he reads it and gets hooked, even better.
christophe
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TonyB2009 doesn't really care about secret in mentalism as he's mainly a children magician.
I'm wondering if tony in his shining armor will be so helpful about his own field.
MatCult
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Quote:
On 2013-11-15 09:37, christophe wrote:
TonyB2009 doesn't really care about secret in mentalism as he's mainly a children magician.
I'm wondering if tony in his shining armor will be so helpful about his own field.


Ooh. Zing. Nice one Parmesan!

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"Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business."
Mindpro
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Mark_Chandaue, no problem thanks for the thoughts, I agree, glad you stepped in in my absence.

Yeah it's amazing how some here can't handle light-hearted answers. As if that's what you should be complaining about in this thread. Not Eric or anyone here was bullying here. Those being accused are also those that have regularly and continually have helped many for years and offered a plethora of great advice. He was offered some good info, which is what he should be seeking. What you want us just to give him the answers/goods?

I'm sure TonyB's comments were directed as me as he likes to put in a jab anytime he gets the chance. We are so lucky that he not now only shares his wisdom and (?) in the hypnosis forum but now in the mentalism forum as well. Oh boy! (Again, more light-hearted fun that will not be understood by some, yet appreciated by others).

I guess the original statement should be more like - "I'd love to just walk up to the Magic Café and ask for answers and methods", isn't that magician's helping magician's? What is this WikiMagic? "All the answers you need, at your fingertips, just for the asking". Is that what some think this should become?

The best advice here should be "do your own studying and research (like everybody else here has done" and learn to use the "search" function here - there is a wealth of information here if you're willing to put in the effort.

Love,

Mindpro
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2013-11-15 09:37, christophe wrote:
TonyB2009 doesn't really care about secret in mentalism as he's mainly a children magician.
I'm wondering if tony in his shining armor will be so helpful about his own field.

Christophe, I do more kids shows than mentalism, but I work regularly at mentalism too. This weekend I am doing three kids shows, and one mentalism show at a wedding. Fairly typical. So this is my field. I have regularly shared my kids routines with others, and have published them in a book and on a DVD. I have not shared my mentalism the same way because I have not made a substantial original contribution that is mine to share.

If a beginner approaches me I will always recommend a book. That way if they are genuine they can go to the effort of getting that book, paying for that book, and studying it. If not, I have pointed them in the right direction and they did not have the interest to begin the journey. In either case nothing is lost.

Mindpro, I was not having a go at you specifically (thought as you point out, I have frequently on the hypnosis forum). I was pointing out a persistent problem on this forum. It was seven posts in before someone said something useful or helpful, and in the entire thread (28 posts now) only five posts, or less than 20%, were usefully addressing the original query.

We have a problem here, and I don't care who I offend by repeatedly pointing it out.
mastermindreader
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I have no problem with the idea of "magicians helping magicians." But I do like to see at least an indication, though, that the person asking the question is a magician (or a mentalist) in the first place. When a new anonymous poster simply states that he/she saw something on TV and would like to know how it's done, I don't immediately give an answer or point to resources any more that I would recommend the 13 Steps to someone who came up to me after a show and asked "Where can I learn to do stuff like that?"

Beginners are treated much more nicely here when they first introduce themselves and provide a bit of information about their involvement with magic/mentalism, etc. That said, it's a bit extreme and totally inaccurate to say there has been "bullying" on this thread. All I see are the responses I would expect from those who believe mentalism should remain an art whose secrets aren't simply available for the asking by anyone.

Too often Café members read "Magicians Helping Magicians" as "Magicians Helping Everyone to be Magicians."

I think we really could solve a lot of the problems here by reinstating or rewriting the sticky topic that used to appear at the top of this forum.

And to the OP- Welcome to Penny. Understand that this conversation goes on all the time here and isn't really directed at you. All you did, after all, was ask a question. But if you'd be so kind as to introduce yourself and let us know a little about you and the extent of your interest in and involvement with mentalism, your age, etc., you may be surprised to find out just how nice some of these so-called "bullies" can be.

But if you're just looking around for secrets, recall this advice by JRR Tolkien:

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." Smile

Good thoughts,

Bob

Good thoughts,

Bob
lemonjug
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Quote:
On 2013-11-15 09:37, christophe wrote:
TonyB2009 doesn't really care about secret in mentalism as he's mainly a children magician.
I'm wondering if tony in his shining armor will be so helpful about his own field.

Christophe = elephant in the room.
Mindpro
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I also think part of the problem is there is no distinction between those that are in the arts as mentalists and magicians or typical laymen that stumbled on us here from a Google search. Yes, the way on approaches someone within the arts is different from those outside the arts or the industry.

Then the argument arises of "well we all had to start somewhere" or "maybe he is a laymen but considering entering the magical arts". Then the answer should quickly be, Penney is not the place to start and direct him to the beginners forums. Also while I agree with Bob, seems to me many never read the Stickies even when present. I think it would be cool if upon someone's first entry or discovering of the Café, they go to an initial area offering some protocol - introduce yourself, explain where you're from, your interests and current level of proficiency (or create a level structure - kids, teen adult, beginner, hobbyist, amateur, semi-professional, professional) and some basic info. Then explain a few things, THEN they can access the forums. Just an idea, but it might help with the "I-want-secrets-now-just-for-the-asking", youtube generation.
eSamuels
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Someone watches an NBA game on television and is blown away by the grace and power of Lebron James dunking a basketball.
The experience inspires them to learn to play the game.
So they buy a basketball and go to the local playground and start to learn the basics, (after realizing how high the basket actually is).
If they stick with it, they develop skills, over time.

or,

Someone watches a Mentalist on television and is blown away by the extraordinary feat the performer demonstrates.
The experience inspires them to learn how to do 'stuff like this.'
They Google it and end up on The Magic Café, where they excitedly post a question, asking "how can I do that?"

I'm certainly not comparing the skill levels of what we do as compared to Lebron James, but use the comparison to illustrate a distinction in both the perception and sense of accessibility to what we do.
Which is a little crazy - at least 'on paper!'
I mean, which would/should actually be a more difficult skill to learn - playing basketball (even at the highest level), or actually reading another person's mind?

If what we do is perceived as trickery (as does occur when it is trivialized), the answer is easy. Google it and find out how to do it.
So, the fault does not lie with the newbie excitedly posting a question. To him (or her), it's the natural thing to do. Just as they would go to WebMD to self-diagnose.

The fault lies in a 'community,' suffering from a cultural lag resulting from exponential growth without a solid infrastructure that ensures protection of our most valued asset.
There are myriad reasons why this has occurred.
The bad news is that we're well beyond the horses simply being out of the coral. We're at the point where there exists an entirely new generation of horses who aren't even aware that a coral ever existed.

e
Dynamike
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To me there are 2 different factors:

1. The amount of post the member has. There is no way we know if the new unknown member is just lurking or has enough desire to really become a mentalist. That person probably is just trying to do some of there magic on us to figure out one or more of our effects. If the individual is serious enough, of course he/she come back again and again. If they continue to knock, let them in.

2. What the member is requesting. If that individual enters asking the secrets to one of our effects, I am going to give them a challenge by looking at them eye to eye. That is how I entered years ago. I was challenged big time. Guess what? I learned my lesson from what you guys put me through. It helped me see a big difference between magic and mentalism. If the member post a satisfying statement he/she is interested in learning how to become a mentalist, offer the book of 13 Steps.

I am sorry guys but I see a difference between "magicians helping magicians" and "mentalist helping mentalist". There are a lot easy magic tricks in this world that can given to a newbie. But I see difference in mentalism.

I started magic 38 years ago. Seven years ago I saw Max Maven at a convention. I was amazed by his act. I never knew mentalism was so enjoying. His act inspired me to do mentalism too.

In order to enjoy mentalism you must enter both doors to our house. The first door is light and will be able to open with ease. A lot of people enter the first door on a regular basis. They think they are seeing everything dealing with mentalism. But they are not. Everything seems boring to them because the room has no furniture (magic props). There's not even a window inside (magic word). There is no butler to hang up their coat (easy to get to mentor or mentalist shop). The second door is very heavy to open. We always keep it unlocked. But because of the force needed to swing open the second door, most people just give up and leave our house going back out the first door missing all the fun in mentalism. They were thinking the other side of the second door would look the same as the present room. It was so boring that they have no idea what mentalism is, they can't even think of a bad name to call it.

I know about this because I left the house not opening the second door when I was in my young teens. I made it through the first door by buying a mentalist set. It seemed boring to me because I gave up trying to push open the second door. So I stayed with magic tricks instead. Five years back from now I decided to give it another try after watching Max Maven. It took me a lot of force to push open the second door. But when I got it open I saw a paradise. Everything looked so clean and shiny. I felt like I was in a different world. I always regretted I did not open the second door when I was in my teens.

Both doors are always unlocked. Everything is up to the person. "Interest & Desire" is the "key" to enter.

There is a difference between asking for secrets and asking for help on how to learn mentalism. Let me show you guys a few quick examples:

1. "Hi. My name is John Doe. I saw a mentalist read a person's mind last night on TV. How do I do that?"
2. "My girlfriend told me I should be a mentalist. Tell me some secrets."
3. "This is my first post. I want to learn telepathy. What is the secret? I promise I will not tell anyone."

vs.

1. "I always noticed mentalism as a professional art. I want to be the only one in my neighborhood to learn it. I understand it requires a lot of skill. What is the best procedure for me to learn mentalism?"
2. "I always wanted to travel to different corporations entertaining with mentalism. I found this forum last night. Is there a school I should go to first, or is there something I should read first?"
3. "I have been a magician for 40 years. I am to old to travel with my heavy props anymore. I decided to switch over to mentalism because I will have a lot less to carry. What books or DVDs would you recommend to me for learning mentalism?"
john wills
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Please gentleman stop this.
The answer of the "problem" is in the last few words of the OP.
" ...would be a good icebreaker for when going to a nightclub".
This guy is NOT trying to learn/study mentalism at all, but he
wants to use "our" knowledge to make contact.
I don't think the Magic Café is the right place, he has to
go to onto the street to a physical café/club...LoL...and
try to find other ways to make the touch...(e.g. impact)
TonyB2009
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I think it is significant that the original poster, like many before him, has given up. He has been mocked and belittled, and has gone away. Giving someone the advice to go and read a book is not unlocking our secrets. A dilettante would not bother going to that effort. No harm would come of being a little more friendly and a lot less snooty.
Quote:
On 2013-11-15 10:59, mastermindreader wrote:
And to the OP- Welcome to Penny.

Glad somebody said it. If this could be said to most newbies here, we could explain the rules, break them into our ways, and stop sneering at them. What a wonderful world that would be.
Godzilla
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Quote:
On 2013-11-15 16:42, john wills wrote:
Please gentleman stop this.
The answer of the "problem" is in the last few words of the OP.
" ...would be a good icebreaker for when going to a nightclub".
This guy is NOT trying to learn/study mentalism at all, but he
wants to use "our" knowledge to make contact.
I don't think the Magic Café is the right place, he has to
go to onto the street to a physical café/club...LoL...and
try to find other ways to make the touch...(e.g. impact)


You posted it,and they still choose to ignore!

Biggest problem I see,everyone wants to post,but not read others! Smile
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Mike Ince
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I think it's safe to post this here for posterity. If you're new to magic go ahead and buy whatever you want. You'll spend too much money the first couple of years. If you're like me you'll come to appreciate books for their value. You'll also find what interests you by performing. You may continue for years, or you may decide your other interests are a better use of time. A shop like Half-Price Books can be great resource in the beginning. You don't need a magic shop. The best way to fool magicians is to become a magic dealer.

If you're new to the Café the worst thing you can do is ask for methods. The people who need to know that won't read this post before they ask, and so this kind of thread will continue to occur about once a month.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2013-11-15 19:01, Mike Ince wrote:
The best way to fool magicians is to become a magic dealer.

Very good.
lamo1994
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Thank you to those who gave me some beginners reading on the subject, after all, I asked where could I learn to so similar things; I'd didn't explicitly ask someone to give me a wikihow guide on exactly how to do it.

As I said to Mike Ince, "I Was hoping for a slightly warmer welcome but I do understand that if all the answers are given to everyone who asked then the whole magical community would no longer have a art."

I am surprised that the group that general society classes as "outside the laws if physics" can hold the same morals as regular man. As an oursider looking in, it gives a good indication of Elitism at its worst.

In response to mastermindreader's request for me to introduce myself a little more, I'm 19, from the South West of England and I have just started university in Bath. I have always been very interested in magic however sport has been a huge part of my life (to the point that I am currently studying a sports degree). when I moved to university, I gave up most of my sport to study however have found I have loads to free time. As I said, I gave always been interested in magic, and have religiously watched the "scam school" episodes on YouTube, however I am much more interested in mentalism and how the brain works. Part of my degree is optional physiology, which seems closely linked and is unbelievably fascinating to me.

I am interested in learning the skills and "ways" of a mentalist for both educational and recreational purposes, and the "ice breaker for a nightclub" line was a very loose example of my intents.

I hope I didn't offend anybody by asking for help by getting into a community such as this one, I was merely looking for guidance. A huge thanks again to those who have gave me a small step up into the world of magic.

Regards
Mindpro
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Two hugely different posts here. You will find members here are much more willing to help once they know a bit about who they are helping. This should be a lesson, not just in the Café but in life. Lessons about getting what you seek, fitting in, first impressions, understanding that just because something is new to you, doesn't mean it is to the community or genre you are trying to enter. Most of all, as in life, there are right ways to do things and wrong ways, right ways to get what you want and wrong things, right ways to approach something new and wrong ways, right ways to fit in and wrong ways. And most of all - Perception. To quote the great Bruce Bernstein (look him up when you're further down the road in your studying) "Perception Is Everything".

Not sure why you were "expecting" a warmer reception or really "expecting" anything. Perhaps that was your first mis-"perception". Next, "As an outsider looking in, it gives a good indication of Elitism at its worst" - you've been here ten minutes, YOU started out on the wrong foot and now YOU are casting such sentiments on an entire community that YOU don't know and are seeking answers from? Again, not a great start. Your words are saying one thing, yet your tone is saying another

I am also still slightly suspect based on your "elitist" comment.

So what is the real interest? "Id love to be able to do a variation of this, and be able to walk up to someone on the street and be able to say there name, would be a good ice breaker for when going to a nightclub" or because of a actual sincere interest in studying and becoming skilled in the the arts?

A bit of advice, mentioning things like "I gave always been interested in magic, and have religiously watched the "scam school" episodes on YouTube" aren't the best way to gain seriousness and credibility here either.

Perhaps with your "personal education" and "recreational" interests, you may be better suited for mental magic, rather than mentalism (if you even know the differences). Mentalism isn't necessarily a "starting point". You should be giving Mike I. a big thanks for taking the time and effort to personally enlighten you and offer you what was likely some sound advice. How you use it and respond to it will determine the first step and likely your success in your quest and overall journey.

Time will tell. Welcome.
john wills
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Lamo 1994,
SORRY, but you have to study a little bit more.
You are talking about physiology ("which seems closely linked"), but if you study this well you will find out that this is about: the science of (the function) MECHANICAL, PHYSICAL and BIOCHEMICAL functions (in modern language: the hardware).
That's NOT (closely linked to) the study of the brain, thinking and psychology and that's all what mentalism (and mental magic) is about.
P L E A S E read the above post of Mindpro again and AGAIN!!
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