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ko_brian Veteran user 343 Posts |
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On 2013-11-26 04:08, Pakar Ilusi wrote: In Churches they don't say: -Good morning brother and sisters, trhough the power of the devide we are going to make this helicopter desapear today. LOL. They would rather say: I can feel a proplem in you life, a family problem isn't it my brother? Your 15 year old son is acting weird, right! Is not obeing you as he used to..., I want you to close your eyes and feel this energy that will come from Heaven to you, In a moment it will be so strong that you will never be able to deny it. Now the devine is giving you power to help your son! He will bless your son's life trhough you, etc... I will touch your forhead and bless you. You WILL feel the devine's power, Feel How Strong the devine is... (ET by Yigal Mesika, and you don't even need it)... after he belives you, ask them to pick a card and sign it, and make it appears from the forbidden fruit. (LOL) |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
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On 2013-11-26 04:08, Pakar Ilusi wrote: Depends... on premise and presentation. Imagine an experiment in bilocation - the car phases out of existence on the stage, with witnesses there... its gone... but the car is now seen at location X.... someone gets into it, with various items asked for by the audience from a supermarket or whatever, and phases back to the stage. In fact, now that I think of it, it goes to the future... and comes back with predictions and prophecies and so on... or goes to the past and leaves a borrowed object in antartica.... an audience member holding a sample of ice from millions of years ago is brought up and there is the item. Yeah, its all "magic" but it can be fun and cool with a lot of WTF versus just make a car vanish - that is boring. Making it vanish for a reason that engages the imagination - that is fun. As for the fruit... bizarre magic as alluded to above - who knows what might be growing inside it... and get a spectator to eat the fruit after too... heck, go to Spooky and you'll see presentations of so called magic and mentalism with a narrative arc.... IMHO You noted I said both magic and mentalism - as I contend that one is not superior to the other - its how much respect you give your own art and the presentation.... things fall flat or or lousy when the performer themselves don't get into the zone IMHO - or try to present an effect with a non matching context - for example, the balloon animal prediction from Riggs is great - I've used that on stage - and its the mentalism aspects that wow but the cute animal adds emotional hooks and buy in... In other words, artificially dichotomies never help anyone. IMHO Oh, how many people have done a whispering buddha routine? This is not rhetorical - and tell me, is that magic or mentalism?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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ChrisC New user 66 Posts |
Statistically speaking, I'm pretty sure if you do mentalism for x number of people, or magic for x number of people, and present yourself as "real" for both groups, more people will believe the mentalist.
I'm not saying its better, its just that a significantly large number of people really believe that psychic phenomenon is real, and most people had a toy magic set as a child. While every magician has extraordinary moments, people watching David Blaine are more likely to be left wondering "how did he do that?" Where as people watching Syliva Brown, or the "long island medium" or even Kreskin are more likely to be in tears because they just witnessed a miracle. THAT BEING SAID, Mentalism being more "real" is NOT a reason to switch over. It is not strictly more ENTERTAINING, and our job is to entertain. Magic presented correctly will ALWAYS outperform mentalism presented poorly. Your act should consist of what YOU can do best. As far as it mentalism being more "adult" entertainment, it is. Not "more adult" than magic, but it would be pretty hard to entertain an entire group of children with just mentalism. Magic can entertain adults just as much as children, if presented properly. I prefer mentalism because it gives me more freedom to focus on presentation, and interacting with the audience. I can keep people entertained with close up magic, but on stage with just magic I would be a fish out of water. Some people feel that without magic on stage and restricted to mentalism, they would not be as entertaining. And those people should not "switch" just because it's more real. Real is not the same thing as entertaining. Look at Penn and Teller, they present what they do as honest deception, and are one of the most well known names in all of magic. Do what you can do the best. -Chris |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Great thoughts.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts |
I'm dyslexic, I struggle with presenting my thoughts clearly in writing, last time I tried taking part in one of these discussions it ended with me and Iain slapboxing in a pub alley.
So, what I say here is not said out of disrespect to mentalism or anyone taking part in this discussion. I'm not going to be quoting anyone as I feel that makes people think I'm attacking them directly, I promise I'm not. Here we go. It seems to me that whenever a mentalist is bad, either because they're not believable, not engaging or they rely on tricks rather than presentation and rapport, they will often be called 'a magician pretending to be a mentalist.' This unfairly stacks the argument or comparison between the two, magicians making up some good and a lot of bad performers, whereas 'real mentalists' are made up of only the good performers. Instead of calling them a magician trying to be a mentalist, why don't we just call them a bad mentalist? Is such a thing not possible? Another example on the flip side of this is how most people don't consider Derren Brown a 'mental magician' even though he fits the apparent criteria. He has performed 'tricks' along side mental effects, he has admitted to being a magician and is even considered to be one to some people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vexIaDfFvo Then there's the argument that some people make that magic is easier to do, the idea being that a magician only needs 'tricks' to do well and doesn't require a persona or presentation skills. However I can't think of a single good magician who does well that this applies to. Finally there's the idea that mentalism is more believable, more realistic to people and it will be taken more seriously. However Sathya Sai Baba started a world wide religious organization with millions of followers and he proved his claims of genuine supernatural ability with incredibly basic slight of hand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_life_a......ai_baba/ Anyone can vanish a hanky with a T.T. and anyone can write a number on a piece of card with a s***i. It's easy to do magic badly, it's hard to do it well. It's easy to do mentalism badly, it's hard to do it well. |
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Stephen Young Inner circle Thought Illusions 3933 Posts |
A funny thought occurred to me today.
On this subject of mentalism being seen as "real" while sleight of hand is "just a trick" The thing is in actual fact the sleight of hand actually IS real. The magician REALLY does make your wedding ring go from his hand and appear on his key-ring. (Ok he may be misdirecting you and doing some sneaky moves etc. but he HAS done what he he appears to be doing) He REALLY does make the light bulb float out over the audience. (he may not be defying gravity but he has done something wonderful that everyone can see) It just seemed ironic that when a magician REALLY does something incredible like a perfect t*p ch*ng* that he's practiced for a year, it is seen as just a trick. Not a skill. Where as a mentalist can do nothing he says he is (getting a sneaky p**K instead of picking up thoughts etc. like he says he is) but it can be seen as real. Not sure where that fits into the discussion, it just struck me as odd that the liar is seen as real while the truth telling technician is "just tricking people". steve |
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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts |
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On 2013-11-26 12:34, Stephen Young wrote: I actually have a similar long running argument with one of my super skeptic friends and my brother, I claim I do real magic, they say I don't, I ask them what's their definition of real magic, they say 'Harry Potter type stuff', I point out that that's fiction, they punch me. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I don't see the difference. I claim to be able to tell people what they are thinking. And that is EXACTLY what I do. I just don't tell them how I go about it. (And very often it is done with moves requiring as much skill as any magicians' sleight.)
So why is a top-change "true," while a billet s***** is not? |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
We need to define what "magic" really is. Set aside the quality of the performer for just a second...because we can agree that bad magicians and bad mentalists both suck at whatever they're going to do.
There's audience perception and then there are the actual mechanical aspects of leading the audience to that "perception." If you look at a word in a book, close the book in the sure and certain knowledge that I have no idea what word you've chosen...AND then I tell you what word you're simply thinking of...how is that not "magical?" Is it plausible that I've just read your mind? More so, I think, than the notion that the man on the stage is actually making a lightbulb float over top of the audience. Why? People hear about ESP, telepathy etc. their whole lives. While they may be skeptical can they ever be COMPLETELY sure that a sixth sense doesn't exist? How do they explain their own intuitions that turned out to be correct or in the lives of people they know? Stack that up against the many urban legends dealing with the arcane magical powers of making a lightbulb float...or causing huge statues in NYC to vanish. What do you get? Oh...right...there ARE no urban legends like that. My point is that the definition of magic as "something that simply doesn't/can't happen in the real world" (ie: floating bulbs and disappearing statues) is accurate. But people KNOW such things can't happen... The actual question is: "Could what I've just seen possibly be REAL?" With standard magic...they will wonder how the 'trick' was done. With mentalism, many will wonder if it's possible. That's the huge advantage mentalism has over magic -- the delicious "what if" aspect it presents. So the key is not to confuse a magical effect with something that has the potential to be truly magical. Hope that makes sense. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts |
That does make sense David, however the flaw in the argument is that there is still plenty of urban legends, beliefs and ideas that people genuinely believe in of people actually being able to: Levitate, pass through solid objects, control elements especially fire, walk on water, transform into animals, conjurer Demons, make food, water or money materialize etc.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
This is all interesting to me, because I have shifted a little way from mentalism and maybe a tad more towards magic in some ways...but I'm not performing much from either (in its purist sense), as I'm combining it with surrealist techniques too...
but I'm not a surrealist, a magician or a mentalist...everything I'm doing makes sense (to me anyways) - but its a hybrid that I feel suits me a lot more than anything else..and rather than keeping things separate, now I feel I can link/merge everything I love together into one big..erm..."thing"...because I have a backbone that is underneath it that makes me feel far more comfortable than anything else I've experimented with...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Best way I can put it, is in the thread I started a while back about the little things, what you use during any kind of performance - and how appropriate it is for you (your character)... I think as long as the you and your own personal context is clear, and everything, absolutely everything that comes out of that makes sense - and people understand it then its kinda ok...works for me, and that's all I can say...
I've asked to be banned
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Amirá Inner circle MentalismCenter.com 5131 Posts |
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On 2013-11-26 13:43, IAIN wrote: IAINism My opinion is rather simple: Mentalism CAN be more real. Magic CAN be more real. The difference between CAN and IS depends in your approach. Best
Pablo
Performer and Author Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism www.mentalismcenter.com Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers www.arkanosophy.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I should also point out that I had to talk WitchesHat of doing a balloon swallow, followed by a Q&A during a five minute open-mike slot...
I've asked to be banned
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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts |
And I will point out I never intended to do a Q&A following a balloon swallow, I asked for his advice about doing a Q&A in a venue where a balloon swallow is more appropriate.
And Iain next time we're full on Greek wrestling in the ally behind the pub. |
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Stephen Young Inner circle Thought Illusions 3933 Posts |
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On 2013-11-26 13:19, mastermindreader wrote: I think what I was trying to say (and not doing so good a job of it) was that When a magician says he will make two cards swap places that's exactly what he does. It may not be at the time he says so (it may already have happened)but what he says and what he does are the same. But if a mentalist says I will pick up on your thoughts bla bla bla when in actual fact he is p**k*ng then what he says and what he does are not the same thing. I'm not making any judgements either way, it was just a thought that popped into my head. So in the example of the t*p ch*ng* vs the b*ll*t switch above one is true and the other one false only in the sense that the t*p ch*ng* IS the magic while the b*ll*t sw*tch is a means to the magic. Please people, lets not turn this into a magic v mentalism fight. Take my writing in the way it was intended. Something to peruse over. steve |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Wooooohahaha
fight! fight! fight! fight! fight! fight! fight! fight!
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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts |
NAKED DRUNKEN FIGHTING!
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
One of the things that set me on the road to mentalism was a presentation in the royal road to card magic, and it involved a pulse-reading...opened my eyes to a few things...
I've asked to be banned
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Stephen Young Inner circle Thought Illusions 3933 Posts |
I think that perhaps I am looking at this slightly differently than most.
I was focusing on the word REAL in the original post. I took real to be someone saying exactly what they are going to do, and then doing it. e.g. I will make these coins move from this cup to this cup. Saying "I will tell you what you are thinking" is technically true as far as the audience is involved. but in reality what we are doing is telling them what they wrote down. (or some other ruse we may employ) This won't work in every case. In an ambitious card routine the magician is NOT doing what he says "I will put your card in the middle of the deck and whoosh, it jumps to the top" And a mentalist using something like Prevaricotor is then being REAL in my opinion. I'm just rambling now. Bye. Steve |
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