Hi,
I also think that colourful props particularly cartoony items can limit your working ages .
An older child walking Into a room to see a show set of say "wolf magic" props all laid out . I can imagine a 9 year old thinking "baby show!" now you could overcome this with a good show but why make it hard
Phil

So, let me get this straight. You don't think children like colorful props? (keep in mind liking them and needing them are two different things) Of course children like things that are fun and makes them laugh. Don't we all? Who is arguing against that?

I have children to, even grandchildren but that has nothing to do with nothing unless I make it something worth something more. Who is arguing that less is more, or more is better? Certainly not me. lol

There are many different styles children entertainers can approach. Some are just strictly children magician's, some are children entertainers. Packing small and playing big is not the answer for everyone. Some present a theatrical show, with music, lights, backgrounds, and yes colorful props. Some children magicians would not be able to perform in that type of setting. Some others pack light because it's easier to carry around and travel with. There is no right or wrong. The only right and wrong has to do with how you use your tools. Just like I said earlier, which you seem to disagree with.

"That's like saying any tool can hammer a nail into a board. The tool doesn't matter just as long you are a good carpenter. Of course props matter, just like using the right tool for the job.

Children love colorful props, and props can inspire us to be better performers, and help make our routines more visual and entertaining."

It's called knowing your audience. If I am performing a show for 4-6 year olds I don't care about the 9 year old walking in and saying "baby show" I didn't get hired to perform for him. I choose routines appropriate for that age group. If I am performing for children 7-12 I of course choose my routines accordingly. If I am doing a family show with mixed ages from 3-12 I again choose my routines appropriately. So, I don't get what your getting after?

Off topic a bit, but what is The Association
Of Welsh Wizards?

It's called knowing your audience. If I am performing a show for 4-6 year olds I don't care about the 9 year old walking in and saying "baby show" I didn't get hired to perform for him. I choose routines appropriate for that age group. If I am performing for children 7-12 I of course choose my routines accordingly. If I am doing a family show with mixed ages from 3-12 I again choose my routines appropriately. So, I don't get what your getting after?
[/quote]
Hi,
I see we have different perceptions of being a magician is . I do understand yourself and many other magicians like you . Who just want to entertain a target group. To me I am a magician I am there to entertain the audience the entire audience ! I would feel Terrible if I did not care about the odd 9 year old as you put it . We clairly have different goals when it comes to entertaining. I am not saying that I always achieve my goal but I try phil

All my shows are entertaining. I perform for targeted audiences because I am hired to perform for a specific age group. That's why they hire me for. But to assume my show is not entertaining for the parents or older siblings is quite incorrect and rather ignorant to think that. I don't have to perform adult magic at a children show to be entertaining to the adults. I am first and foremost a children's entertainer.

Perhaps the Association Of Welsh Magicians could explain what my original post was referring to

Hi,
I never said your shows where not entertaining or indeed any comment on your performance . Just that are mindsets differ . It was you who said that you did not care about the odd 9 year old and that you aimed to the target age that you where booked.
I am just trying to hold a discussion not an argument .
Phil

Posted: Nov 24, 2013 1:14pm
Another mind set difference we have is in your comment " I do not perform adult magic at the children"
I do not see tricks as tricks to me for the most part it is the presentations which make it kids or adult or family . For me I would rather take what some would term an adult effect and present it for children than take a baby trick and try to present it up to an older crowd.
For example a borrowed item to impossible location can play to any age with the correct presentation but I would struggle to make farmyard frolics play for over 7s
Yes I probably could make it play for 9 year olds but the silly pictures and look of the props would work against me as a first imppression. For you this may not be the case phil

And I never said you said my shows weren't entertaining. Lol
I care about performing for the children I was hired to perform for, and not concern myself with someone who may walk in during my show and say,"baby show". If I was performing for babies, that would be a compliment.

I have done many school assemblies that included k-6, and I have performed for corporate family events with mixed ages. Being flexable and diversified as an entertainer is something that has got me plenty of bookings. Creating and customizing my shows to fit any theme or special requests is also something that gets me booked.

I don't refer myself as a children magician but rather a children's entertainer because that's my goal. To entertain children. Magic to me is also a prop I use to entertain with.

Using the right tools for what I do is important for me. Sure, I could use a newspaper in place of a rope for a rope routine, but no matter how great I may be, it just wouldn't make sense. Agree?

Posted: Nov 24, 2013 1:21pm
I personally believe there is a difference between a trick and magic.

Yes I agree to there is a difference between a trick and magic ....the presentation

I believe magic is the feeling they get from our presentation of a trick. Back to what I said earlier in another way. I do not perform nor present adult themed routines for children. A 3 year old child would never get the magical moment of 3 card Monte, but if I added funny bits to it that they found funny, they would be entertained without experiencing the magic.

Many adults can and do enjoy watching children's magic and entertainment, as much as I still laugh at children cartoons.

I think from what you have said, you also believe using the right props are important, just like using the right tool when hammering a nail.

Danny - I really don't understand the argument you are making. No one is saying big, colourful props are bad, just that they will not do the work for you and the real magic lies in the presentation. Where you are getting the idea that I was advocating doing a rope trick with no rope or maybe doing it with a newspaper, I have no idea.

As for your statement about a child not getting the magical moment of a 3 card monte - why not? This is genuinely fascinating to me and this is our real job as children's entertainers - to find a way to make the experience fun, magical and entertaining for our audience. Why would you feel they would have to miss out on the magic?

I never once at any time in the video suggested that you should use a wrench to knock in a nail.

I said that all that matters is the entertainment.

I said one of the problems is that when we have invested a lot of money on a big prop, it might be tough to admit to ourselves that it doesn't suit us. Sometimes the performer is so in love with the prop itself that they seem unaware that the performance is lacking. I could give many examples and even show you videos to prove this, but that would be mean. I have been guilty of this myself many times in the past. I'm far more ruthless now.

I said that you absolutely do not NEED big props to impress a client or entertain an audience. That is undeniably true in my opinion. That said, if you love the big stuff and can pull it of- go for it!

I said a 3 year old, and all I am doing is defending my first post that I made. I don't think I need to explain why a 3 year old wouldn't understand 3 card Monte do I? Go back and read my first post and what I said for full clarification of the original point I was making.

I was never arguing what you said. I was making a point that choosing our props should be like a carpenter chooses his tools. Where do you get that I was arguing with your statement? I believe one of my other posts even supported part of your comment.

Posted: Nov 24, 2013 8:06pm
I used you as an example when I mentioned you and the rope trick thing. Would you perform a rope trick with a newspaper? I would think you wouldn't. Lol

Posted: Nov 24, 2013 8:38pm
And, lastly, if we are performing as magicians don't you also think being magical also matters when it comes to being entertaining? I can be entertaining and not perform magic tricks. I can be magical and not entertaining. If I am wrong, correct me. I'm constantly willing to always learn more, and I am very good with being corrected when I am wrong.

Posted: Nov 24, 2013 9:14pm
We could debate that some props can make our routine funnier and more entertaining if you wish. Take the vent mask for example. Try performing the routine without it. Would it be as funny or entertaining? Just saying.

Not a ridiculous comment at all. Nowhere near as ridiculous as the unqualified statement that kids love colourful props, which we are expected to accept as gospel. Kids love lots of things. They love farts. But I think we all would agree that a show made up of farts would not be appropriate. If all we were concerned about was what 'kids love', then why not stick a cartoon on the telly, and walk away?

Colourful props do not entertain children. The performer who uses the props entertains the children. And he/she can do it without the props just as easily. Props are not an addition to your act; they are a choice. Some of us choose to use them, others choose not to. There is not a single colourful prop in my show, aside from two puppets. Kids don't complain, and their parents don't complain. That's because the show is every bit as good as my more colourful rivals.

Also, I don't know what storytellers you have been watching, but none of the guys I watch use visual aids. They use their voice and language to tell the story, not props. We Irish are a nation of storytellers, and the seanachai is still a familiar figure here. Any storyteller that relied on visual props over here would be laughed off the stage.

Big colourful props have no intrinsic worth. They are merely the tools some performers use and others don't use.

Can you perform a card trick without cards? Can you perform a coin trick without coins? Can you perform a human vent routine without a vent mask? Those are all props.

Kids love colorful things, but I don't recall saying that's all they love, nor did I say it was gospel. Lol

A word about storytelling.
http://irelandstorytelling.wordpress.com......telling/

Props and puppets are useful when storytelling with young children and can enhance the meaning or presentation of a story. Soft toys, puppets, musical instruments and non-specific props, such as a scarf,can all be effective.
http://www.scottishstorytellingcentre.co......rter.pdf

unqualified statement that kids love colourful props? Hmmm. I'll leave that insult alone and not comment further on it.

Hi,
I just tried Joe ridings 3 card trick with 4 cards on my 3 year old with **** poor presentation and she loved it ! It is similar to sidewalk shuffle . She may not of understood the finer points but loved the fact that she could never find the queen.
Phil

I love the wisdom of Jim Steinmeyer who once said, "Audiences want to feel indulged."

Gerry

Danny, I don't know where you dug up that link, but it has nothing to do with Irish storytelling! For one thing, an Irish storyteller would never read a story. That is not storytelling. And we don't use props. These links will show you what storytelling actually is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TMBGCQu8q0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZD4PQRp8mY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Im-lKGj8PM

And some modern ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii6KY87xwWI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4u_X459gOY

Notice, no props.

Tony,

Thanks for posting those. The first brought back memories of seeing Eamonn Kelly do his full evening show at The Gate Theatre.

As has been pointed out on this thread, children like lots of things. One thing they really appreciate is being treated as equals, as opposed to less intelligent beings.

The intelligent use of a prop can build anticipation, intrigue and interest. The problem arises when magicians believe the prop on its own will do that.

If your show uses minimum props, suddenly bringing out a prop will add contrast and texture to the show. Similarly using a lot of props and doing something with no props. Take Harry Blackstone Jr's full evening show. Lots of illusions filling the stage, even an elephant and donkey. Yet the stand-out routines were the dancing hank and the floating bulb.

The discussion here is on the wrong topic anyway as the use or non-use of props depends on the performer and his or her style and preferences. The real secret to a good show lies in balance, structure and texture.

Excellent post Quentin!

Thank you Ken.

I forgot to add that you should never believe any magic dealer who argues that you shouldn't use props.

Quentin, we made it quite clear in the small print at the end that the argument was for entertainment purposes only and that we encourage people to buy as many big and colourful props as they can.