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seadog93
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Howdy folks,

I saw in some older posts that a DVD at one point was being planned on Pseudo-hypnosis tricks. I haven't found any references beyond that though; does anyone know if this was ever made.

My understanding is that at least some pros use these in cases of very small audiences without enough people who are going under? Is that correct?
Thanks Smile
CK
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Mindpro
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This DVD was never completed or released, and the member is currently inactive around here anymore, although I suspect he still checks in from time to time.

Some have used this type of material as one way to deal with less that ideal performance conditions when things get tough. Others have found different ways to deal with those situations.
mindpunisher
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On the very rare occasion that happened I would just do some mentalism instead.
Dannydoyle
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I do things like this, but dress them as hypnosis. Yes for a committee who has nobody doing what I need.

The reason is I could not imagine being more disappointed than thinking I would see a hypnotist and end up watching magic tricks. Sorry mentalism to a lay audience is magic.

I have worked for a very long time in places where you might not be expecting to see a hypnotist for whatever reason. So having something to fall back on works well.

When I was working in comedy clubs the midnight show might require this sort of thing.

All that being said in literally thousands of shows, ones as described, I have only had to do this a couple of times. Oddly enough sometimes it ends up convincing THEM they are in "trance" and you end up doing more of the "real" stuff. Which again is another reason that mentalism makes no sense to me personally. Don't get me wrong it is a simple matter of preference. Nothing wrong with doing mentalism.

Fact is that under almost any circumstance the show is pulled off without needing this.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Its only happened two or three times to me. Actually lost of of people believe mentalism is real. Intelligent educated people. In fact the more educated the more they believe. Maybe its the type of effects or how they are being presented that makes your audiences think they are magic tricks?

Only recently I was asked to join a team that does training and marketing. I also did a motivational seminar for them which opens with a mentalism presentation I created. At the end of the seminar I was approached by a number of people who all thought it was real. They guy that booked me I thought I had let him on the fact it wasn't real. He was smug thinking he knew how I done it. Turns out he thought it was real too. Next day I attended the training session for the team. Throughout the day long session the mentalism was constantly referred to as something they believed was real.

At the end of the day one of females who is part of the team an American from Texas with a PHD in educational psychology said "You must be exhausted being in a room all day with us picking up our thoughts".

During lunch I was talking to a Highly qualified Engineer with his own engineering company. He told me about how amazing the human mind was and that he had seen Derren Brown memorize a book in 30 secs. Then he was tested as people shouted out the page numbers he could remember what was on the page. He totally believed it was real.

I find this happens al the time I do mentalism too. But I pick my routines presentations carefully and the majority are my own routines. I also embedd them within motivational themes that have genuine real insights.

I use mentalism in seminars and trainings because it puts the audience in a more receptive state to absorb the information at a deeper level. While the conscious mind is searching for meaning for what they just saw the info becomes embedded and the resistance is less. I see this as structuring events that in a sense are hypnotic for real.


On the other front. The types of venues I used to do where I would use mentalism instead of hypnosis were working men's clubs. Ionly ever did it once or twice. Usually when there were not enough and no one wanted to volunteer for hypnosis. It was on rare occasions. The mentalism saved the day. They may have been disappointed but that was the best option and I was there to do a job and get paid and go home. Its not my fault the club didn't promote the show properly.

I personally don't like pseudo hypnosis because it come nowhere near what I can do with hypnosis for real. And I don't want to disappoint them by making them think they have seen a hypnosis show when they haven't. I don't think its good for hypnosis either. Or me as a hypnotist.
mastermindreader
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Danny wrote:

Quote:
...Sorry mentalism to a lay audience is magic.


I agreed with your entire post except that one line. As a broad statement it simply isn't true. And those "mentalists" who find themselves repeatedly being seen as magicians, simply aren't doing it right.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Dannydoyle
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I certainly do not wish to offend.

As a blanket statement it is probably wrong. As most are. But I can point to a whole lot of evidence to back this up from mentalists who are definitely doing it right.

But rather than debate a point we in the end I bet largely agree on lets agree on a point. No matter the perception of mentalism vs magic it is not hypnosis. This is indeed my larger point. I prefer to go at it this way and sell it differently.

Again we do agree I believe.

An interesting topic of perception of magic vs mentalism. To ramble a bit and make no point (Or disprove my own theory!) I offer he foll owing stories.

When Jon Stetson comes to Mexico the drivers tell me they always make sure to think in Spanish around him.

Also I got an email from a woman (A doctor mind you!) who said she wanted to have the email of the mind reader. I was worried but read on anyhow. Said he told her she would change jobs in a few months. More being one to change jobs often she blew it off. TILL SHE CHANGED JOBS! Thanks Docc!

So anyway I ramble on as it can be an interesting topic. I have to say when people ask me the difference in a hypnotist and a mentalist my answer is always the same. A hypnotist puts people to sleep...ON PURPOSE!

Interesting topic but since I never do mentalism it doesn't impact me LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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That's not my personal experience regarding mentalism. Although I can believe that most are like what you sayu. A bad mentalist perhaps would make you sleep as would any bad entertainer. People don't come to see bad hypnosis shows either. And I don't want to give anyone pseudo hypnosis because to me that's not the experience they came to see. Especially if they know who I am and what to expect. I have dozens of people over he years say they saw bad hypnotists that were really boring. So the issue isn't whether mentalist is or isn't boring perceived as "magic" or not. Or if hypnosis better etc. The issue is who and how its being performed. And what you want to do for your audience. (and for the size of fee)After that its personal preference.

But it was only a few years ago when Derren Brown had most of this forum including many mentalists believing what he did was real. I find most lay people still think mentalism is real. At least over here although I am led to believe even more so in your part of the world.
Dannydoyle
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Derren is a classic example of boring to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
interviewer
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Danny. For years I shared the same opinion with you of Derren Brown. His television programmes used to bore me to tears. I utterly hated them. However, I changed my mind when I saw clips of him working in a theatre. He is quite something in that particular environment. A very good showman indeed.
Dannydoyle
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A VERY serious problem with all performance art is that once it gets to film it loses a HUGE part of the magic of any art.

Even music, which in my opinion translates the best suffers from this problem.

I can imagine him being much better live.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2013-12-01 22:19, Dannydoyle wrote:
Derren is a classic example of boring to me.


I find Derren Boring to Danny but 90% of these forums want to be him. It was his influence that made the handstick and handshake induction "popular" and helped start the street thing. He has had prime time TV shows here for over 10 years and sells out all his live shows in large prestigious theatres. It can be a mistake thinking everyone thinks like you or me. I like him in small doses can't sit through a whole programme though. When I use mentalism it isn't boring because its only a part of what I do its not the main thing. But it helps things along. And regularly get people want to shake my hand and approach me after wards. Like I said before it really amazes me the number of people that think its real. And how educated/ intelligent they are.

As for disappointed audiences when there are not enough attending and especially if none of them want to volunteer they are going to be disappointed no matter what. Either way they aren't going to get what they came to see. What you decide to do is preference there is no right or wrong answer. By that stage I just want to make sure I get paid. That is the most important thing to me in these cases. Which are very rare. Although I also know if you push the hypnosis sometimes you can find one person that can save the night. Im talking about situations where no one wants to volunteer and there are only a handful of people.

I never admit failure with hypnosis. On the very few occasions this has happened I make it clear that the onus is on the audience. If they don't volunteer then there is no show. I used to make it clear to the venues that they must promote the show for six weeks and that the quality of the show requires a good audience.

They booked me they know what is required. I turn up and do the best I can with what I have. My main concern is getting paid. Sometimes I would continue with hypnosis. I don't do these types of gigs now anyway. I am currently only doing a few business motivational talks and training.
interviewer
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I used to have failures with volunteers when I first started. Not any more since I adopted the system I mentioned. It just doesn't happen. I don't care if there is only 30 people in the audience I will get some sort of result and a good one. Mind you, I don't think I would like to try it if there 25 or fewer. I think I would then be inclined to do magic and as Mind Punisher says the onus is really on the audience. But perhaps a better idea that I have admittedly not tried is in the case of a very small audience, say 20 or less, to hypnotise EVERYBODY in their seats. Hopefully, 3 or 4 out of the 20 will go "under" and then you are able to do a show.

Of course I do wonder what would happen if the ENTIRE audience went under! It would be a great show with no audience! Luckily, I will cross that bridge in the unlikely event that I come to it!
mindpunisher
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I have hypnotized everybody on a few occasions. At dinner parties where there are only 5 or 6 people but I get pressured to do a stint. And small business meetings/seminars with the a similar number. Funny thing is on most of these occasions at least one person was a good subject and we had a great time!

For business people I get them to do mental exercises that demonstrate how the mind affects performance. This gets rapport and also gives them some valuable insights. I then transition into a couple tests and then choose one or sometimes two to take the "demonstration" further.

I have been really lucky in most cases to find good subjects.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On 2013-12-02 10:18, interviewer wrote:
But perhaps a better idea that I have admittedly not tried is in the case of a very small audience, say 20 or less, to hypnotise EVERYBODY in their seats. Hopefully, 3 or 4 out of the 20 will go "under" and then you are able to do a show.


I recently did this. I received a booking from another very well-known hypnotist here, and it was supposed to be for around 80 guests. When I arrived I was told it would it be for 24. I was thinking what to do as I realized this during my arrival/setup. When positioning the chairs on stage, the person who booked the event said "what are you doing with the chairs?" I explained they were for the onstage volunteers, when she explained to me that this concept was new to them as the other hypnotist just stood on stage himself, but hypnotized the whole audience from their seats, then just did the show from their seats as well while they were sitting among their peers.

While it seemed strange to me given the venue had this beautiful full stage, I decided to do my own adaptation combining my normal performance with the entire audience induction. I did some basic testing then just did a progressive induction (again more like testing), then selected the best subjects to come up on stage to be seated (12 of them), then progressed with my normal show as planned.

I did this because if from past performances they were not used to coming up on stage "to be hypnotized" I sensed it would be quite hard to get volunteers to come up. If this is what they were used to, I'd go with it. Then once they were at the level I desired brought them up and it seemed like a unique twist (I later heard improvement) from what they had seen before.

I later found out that what I had them do on stage was much more physical, and larger playing than what they were used to from remaining in their seats. This of course was perceived as much more hilarious and a "much better show" than they were used to. I enjoyed the compliments and perspective. It was a learning experience combined with thinking on my feet as things went along, but it ended up being a great show.

Not sure I'd do it again, but if I'm ever in a small group situation again, I know I can pull this out and adapt accordingly.
mindpunisher
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When you get everybody involved with a very small group it becomes really obvious who will be a god subject. Even with 10 or less. The issue then is if you have a "star" amongst the group. Most times I've been lucky. But its not a situation I want be in regvularly.
Dannydoyle
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I regularly do shows for under 25 people in slow season at resorts. Heck they are not even there because I am a hypnotist. Good news guys, IT WORKS.

The whole "numbers game" nonsense is just something poor performers tell themselves to make themselves feel better.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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I guess we are all just poor performers then or your audience is easily pleased. They aren't there to see a hypnotist so they have no real expectations. So how can they be disappointed which really kills your original argument dead. I know that those that pay to see a hypnosis show have expectations that pseudo hypnosis won't cut.

You are in a unique environment and it "works" in that environment. To say others are poor performers because they need a proper audience for a PROPER show to meet the exceptions is a bit unfair .

My way WORKS also. As stated above I have done many "shows" with only five or six people successfully with real hypnosis. But they are not the same as doing a proper full scale show that people pay to see or expect.

On the odd occasion I have swapped mentalism for hypnosis it has also WORKED. I got paid and had lots of positive comments from those that attended. Where they may have been disappointed they also understood the situation and appreciated what I did for them instead.
Dannydoyle
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My original argument? Are you intentionally dim? I am not arguing.

I am stating categorically that "conventional wisdom" is a load of hogwash. The days in which hypnosis needs to be done for hundreds with dozens on stage to find the right few are gone. The days in which a show has to be two hours and have a 30 minute induction have gone the way of the do do bird.

Since you have not done shows regularly for well over a decade I am not shocked that this news has escaped you.

The days you pine away for are gone. It is a simple equation. Adapt or die. Show business itself has evolved tremendously in the past decade since your absence from the stage.

In short the idea that you must have lots of volunteers in order to have a show is simply wrong. The idea that you need a huge audience so you can get lots of volunteers is just not right. You can have small numbers of each, and still do a "proper" show. Well some can, perhaps you can not.

But yes lash out at me. Say something clever to cover up the fact that all you ever do is pontificate about the good old days and simply don't work on stage any more. It is a mystery to all of us why you even bother to show up. You don't seem to like hypnosis shows, you don't do one and seem to dislike those who do.

To blame not being able to do a show on the audience.... well whatever.

I am sure all of your shows were 100% brilliant and the stage and the audience is sad for your absence. Yes you are the best ever and the only opinion that matters is yours. But let the rest of us flunkies talk between ourselves.

As I said shows, very good shows (Even PROPER SHOWS!) can be and are being done regularly for very small audiences. If you can't do one, it is the fault of the performer and not the audience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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Danny we just have different standards as to what qualifies as a proper show. I apologize for saying something clever I guess your not used to it performing in venues which you don't have to promote or get people to pay to see. Sounds like a dream easy street if you ask me. you would have to be really bad to screw it up. On one hand I can see how it must be a great opportunity you've caved out in terms of income. But even so I don't think I could have stuck it out for 20 years it would be so soul destroying for me. Even if the money is good supplying the acts etc I would've left years ago.

As for the old days I am doing a fair bit of mentalism and hypnosis at the moment in various formats not the usual shows. As I said I regularly get responses where highly educated and qualified people believe what I do is real. I also am doing corporate gigs over here for lawyers engineers and various professional people that an ordinary show wouldn't work for them.

Once again I apologize for being clever... I will work harder to make myself dimmer so you can feel better. That fragile ego needs a wee stroke now and then.
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