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granterg
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What would you do if a magician or mentalist ripped you to shreds after you tried a new effect on him or her?

Has this ever happened to you before?

granterg

PS: I am not talking about respectful criticism, but genuine disrespect for your efforts.
John C
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Consider the source, walk away and try it on someone else.
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Jesse Lewis
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I would try it with a lay audience and if it went over well use it. Often when doing things in front of others in the art many will cut one down instead of build one up. It is sad but true.

Jesse
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MichaelCGM
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I'd never grace that person with another effect. They don't deserve to be a part of your growth.
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brad12d3
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Quote:
On 2013-12-04 23:04, MichaelCGM wrote:
I'd never grace that person with another effect. They don't deserve to be a part of your growth.


I second this. There is never a good reason to be disrespectful in such a situation. I make it a point to avoid those type of people at all cost.
ko_brian
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Lay Audience is aways the best. Many of us are always creating effects thinking in a away of fooling magicians/mentalist, and if you are the kind of person that do lots of shows to magician/mentalist, I think that is ok. But the important is that we have to fool the layman and the curious.
As magicians/mentalists we don't think like a lay person, doesn't metter what you do. When we watch the effect we are paying attention to moves, technic, etc....

In the other hand, when someone tell us something that is not good about ourselves, we think is something bad, but may not be. Ask the person what they didn't like and in their opinion how could you have done in a better way. People may see ourselves in a different angle, that we will never be abble.

PS.: If it is a stupid guy, just ignore him! =D
MatthewSims
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Quote:
On 2013-12-04 23:04, MichaelCGM wrote:
I'd never grace that person with another effect. They don't deserve to be a part of your growth.


I third this. Positive criticism is wonderful, but there is never an excuse to be disrespectful or rude. Just out of curiosity, what did he say?

Also, what did you perform for him?

Also also, is he even in a position to be critiquing?
Mindpro
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Why are you performing for magicians or mentalists anyhow?
Mind illusionist
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On 2013-12-05 03:13, Mindpro wrote:
Why are you performing for magicians or mentalists anyhow?

Probably just wants to see the effects fool them. I 4th the above comment
Simon (Ted) Edwards
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Granterg, what would you do if someone disrespected you in any situation, magical or otherwise?
T.
Mark_Chandaue
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Depending on who it was doing the ripping I'd try and learn from it. When I was a fresh faced 16 year old at my first blackpool convention I was happily doing tricks in the bar and Ron McMillan was calling people over to watch me and everyone was commenting on how good I was. I triumphantly walked over to Bobby Bernard and did a few tricks and he absolutely ripped me to pieces and told me what I had done was sh11t. I came crashing back down to earth and slipped away with my tail between my legs.

About half hour later I plucked up the stones to go and ask him why he had the audacity to say I was crap while guys like Ron McMillan and Harry Baron were singing my praises. He told me why and showed me how it should be done and I realised he was 100% right. In that moment my whole outlook on magic changed and I became a far better magician as a result.

Mark
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cirrus
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I never take any criticism from magicians because they always see how it is done. I try my effects first on a few close friends and if they didn`t see anything I try it on layaudiences outside my circle of friends. I have bombed a lot but fortunately only in front of friends.
David Numen
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Some of the greatest performers, magic or mental, have broken so-called "rules" of performance. And when I say rules I mean standard stuff in the classic books. This proves to me that no matter who, no matter what they know, magicians suck at knowing what's good and what's bad and what works and what doesn't. If you really feel you have something, try it on a lay person. If it works well, do it to another, if not, find out why it didn't work and tweak it. Only when you've done it a dozen times to lay people, show it to a magician. That way, no matter what they say you've got groundwork to fall back on.
christophe
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If what you did was a real piece of craps and before that you talked to me like you know everything etc,etc... I can understand his reaction Smile
The step between knowledge and performance.
Now if it's a good friend of you, it's different.
Mark_Chandaue
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Rules are meant to be broken but I would say if you are going to break established rules then you should at least understand why Those rules exist and why you are breaking them. The other thing I would say is don't discount experience. If Bob Cassidy or Richard Osterlind gives me feedback I am sure going to listen. Performing for laymen can tell you whether an effect sucks but it's really isn't as good a guide to your performance ability as you might think. If I showed you a video of the reactions I get when I perform for laymen you would think I am a far better performer than I am. Turn the camera on me rather than the spectators and you get a very different picture.

Despite the great reactions I get from laymen I could benefit from an experienced performer watching my performance and giving me honest, even brutal feedback. I watched a video of myself doing a drawing dupe recently and the performance was horrible, that's not modesty it genuinely was horrible I could put it on here as a lesson in how not to perform and yet the laymen I performed for we're very impressed. Being a performer is about far more than simply impressing your audience, I could impress people by eating the hottest chilli known to man, that isn't art (although it might produce an almighty art preceded by an F).

All feedback is a gift no matter how poorly it is delivered. Like any gift first you have to unwrap it. By that I mean you have to look at where it is coming from, what is the motivation behind it, does the person know what they are talking about etc. Once unwrapped, like any other gift, you can choose to accept it or reject it. Evaluating the feedback and then rejecting it is fine if you understand why you are rejecting it and you are being honest with yourself. Ignoring it on the other hand is rarely beneficial.

Mark
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John C
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Quote:
On 2013-12-05 08:06, christophe wrote:
If what you did was a real piece of craps and before that you talked to me like you know everything etc,etc... I can understand his reaction Smile
The step between knowledge and performance.
Now if it's a good friend of you, it's different.


Can't add much more to this! Smile

J
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David Thiel
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There are two ways to tell someone that what they've just performed sucks. There's a way where thoughts and opinions are respectfully presented and the intent is to help another performer see a better way of doing something. There's also a way designed to be destructive and inflict damage.

Oddly enough -- both can be useful. When someone rips into you it may be coming from a friend, as Christophe suggested, with the intent of making you better. It may also come from a jerk, looking to knock you down. In both cases, evaluate why they are saying what they're saying, look for the truth. Take a lesson from what they've said if there's one to be found.

David
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sbays
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Quote:
On 2013-12-05 10:54, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
Rules are meant to be broken but I would say if you are going to break established rules then you should at least understand why Those rules exist and why you are breaking them. The other thing I would say is don't discount experience. If Bob Cassidy or Richard Osterlind gives me feedback I am sure going to listen. Performing for laymen can tell you whether an effect sucks but it's really isn't as good a guide to your performance ability as you might think. If I showed you a video of the reactions I get when I perform for laymen you would think I am a far better performer than I am. Turn the camera on me rather than the spectators and you get a very different picture.

Despite the great reactions I get from laymen I could benefit from an experienced performer watching my performance and giving me honest, even brutal feedback. I watched a video of myself doing a drawing dupe recently and the performance was horrible, that's not modesty it genuinely was horrible I could put it on here as a lesson in how not to perform and yet the laymen I performed for we're very impressed. Being a performer is about far more than simply impressing your audience, I could impress people by eating the hottest chilli known to man, that isn't art (although it might produce an almighty art preceded by an F).

All feedback is a gift no matter how poorly it is delivered. Like any gift first you have to unwrap it. By that I mean you have to look at where it is coming from, what is the motivation behind it, does the person know what they are talking about etc. Once unwrapped, like any other gift, you can choose to accept it or reject it. Evaluating the feedback and then rejecting it is fine if you understand why you are rejecting it and you are being honest with yourself. Ignoring it on the other hand is rarely beneficial.

Mark


Absolutely right!

We are hearing just one point of view. First question I would ask the original poster is, are you accepting of feedback? Sometimes we only want to hear how great our effect was, not to have someone point out how bad it was. I have seen really good advice and critiques handed out before, and the person receiving them took it as being trashed on. I have personally tried helping less experienced performers in the past that just didn't want to absorb the information given. They like to think they know it all sometimes.

And finally, do not perform for people if you are unwilling to receive feedback of any kind. This includes performers AND laymen. And even if you are getting trashed by some jerk that just wants to make you feel like crap, there is still something to learn from it. But I wouldn't recommend a second performance for that person.
"Opportunity may only knock once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."
granterg
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Thanks everyone for your responses.

There are books that teach you how to handle hecklers, but there are no rules on handling other magicians and mentalists.

When this happens, my instinct is to justify why the effect was good but also try to see where the other person is coming from.

I think though it is important to stand up for other performers when they themselves are under attack.

granterg
Mark_Chandaue
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As far as rules for handling magicians and mentalists, Mindpro pretty much covered it when he said "why are you performing for magicians/mentalists". Now if you are performing for the general public and there happens to be a magician there who rips you apart then this guy isn't a magician/mentalist he is just an *** that knows some tricks and should be treated like any other heckler especially if you have a mic ..... First rule of heckling, the man with the mic always wins!!!

Tip for everyone, if you happen to be watching a fellow performer, for the life of that performance forget you are a performer and be a layman. Unless invited to do so by the performer it is highly unprofessional and just plain rude to reveal that you are a magician during their performance. Sure after the show it's cool to privately introduce yourself to the performer but during the show that guy is the star (unless you catch him performing YOUR act then all bets are off Smile)

Beyond that magician or layman it's all the same, listen and evaluate what they are saying and take from it what you find valuable. There is neither a need to, or a point in justifying anything you do to somebody else. If you find a need to justify why an effect is good then perhaps the effect is not speaking for Itself and needs re-evaluating.

Mark
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