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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
What does that have to do with it? I am just posting the facts that most, if not all media outlets are not talking about. Ronald Reagan had Mandela put on the terrorist list, why? Cause America is a racist run government, against equal rights for African American's? I don't advocate violence, nor support terrorism for any cause. I also do not support the American government's support of some terorist groups, and the violence they committ, but that's another issue for another thread.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
Danny, I didn't see a single thing in your list that made me think less of Mandela. I question the agenda of posting these things on the eve of a great man's death.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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I don't advocate violence, nor support terrorism for any cause. Ah, you are a pacifist then. A position I respect but can't totally agree with.
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All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 14:57, Danny Kazam wrote: You would not support the Declaration of Independence or the American Revolution? All armed rebellion is wrong? You would be opposed to defending our constitution with force? |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 14:57, Danny Kazam wrote: Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. Hebrews 10:17 So this whole forgiveness thing is just something you say then.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
When you state that Mandela was offered his freedom if he would simply "renounce terrorism," you are simply revealing your own agenda. He was asked to renounce violence.
Why did Reagan and others call him a terrorist? Perhaps it had a good deal to do with conservative support for businesses who had invested heavily in South Africa. As has been noted, if Mandela was a terrorist, so were George Washington, John Adams, Francis Marion, Nathan Hale, et al. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
"Danny, I didn't see a single thing in your list that made me think less of Mandela. I question the agenda of posting these things on the eve of a great man's death."
Not trying to make anyone think less of him. "You would not support the Declaration of Independence or the American Revolution? All armed rebellion is wrong? You would be opposed to defending our constitution with force?" No, I am not an American. And no, not all armed rebellion is wrong. "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. Hebrews 10:17" You mistakenly have taken that quote out of context. Christ's Sacrifice Once for All …16"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, 17"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. "So this whole forgiveness thing is just something you say then. " Forgiveness is one thing, but forgetting is something different. I hold no hate for Mandela, and I am aware of the good that came out of it all, but it's amazing that all I did was mention some facts about his history and here I am wondering why we can't discuss those issue's in a reasonable debate? Back in the 80's, 90's the media and American Government had a different view of him.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
So you don't support the American Revolution and the Declaration of Independence because you're not an American? Good thing for us that the French and many other non-Americans supported and still support it. And many continue to emulate it and hold it to be a model for freedom loving people.
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 17:03, mastermindreader wrote: If you say so. Why did Mandela have to ally himself with all the enemies of the United States Of America. Why didn't the US go in and do something to help his cause? I have an agenda, yes. That agenda is to understand more about the man. Just to be really clear here. I totally take his side when it comes to communism, and how he felt about the USA's involvement in the Middle East. In fact, there are other things he did, I also support. But, there are also many things e did I did not support. hy is it taboo to talk about them?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 17:16, mastermindreader wrote: Support it how? It's a pretty loaded question to ask of me, and then narrow it down when I say no. I am a descendant of Britain who was raised in Montreal Quebec Canada. I was going to explain my position, but here is a snippet from Wiki. From the outset of the Revolutionary War, George Washington believed he could deal Great Britain a fatal blow by seizing Montréal and Québec City—the most formidable British strongholds in North America. The American general dispatched two armies (commanded by General Richard Montgomery and Colonel Benedict Arnold) to the north to lay siege to the City of Québec and thereby conquer Canada, or more precisely, the "Province of Québec." It was also a way for the American revolutionists to forcefully rally Canadians to join their fight for independence. George Washington expected the Canadians to support the American cause and transform the invasion into a "war of liberation." On the Canadian side, the governor of the province of Québec, Guy Carleton, who had only some 1,600 men—357 soldiers in the regular army, 450 seamen, 543 francophone militiamen, and 300 anglophone militiamen—stationed at the garrison to defend the colony, knew that the only way to prevail against the superior number of American revolutionists (some 8,000 men at the start, divided into two armies) was with the help of the Canadian public. He hoped that his policy of conciliation would bear fruit, but only the Canadian clergy (led by Catholic bishop of Québec, Mgr. Jean-Olivier Briand) and the nobility (lords) responded with any enthusiasm to the call by British authorities. The general public remained relatively indifferent, viewing the war as a "battle between the English." Even so, some Canadians helped the American troops (the "Sons of Liberty"), while others supported the British ("Red Tunics"). The American troops seized Montréal in 1775, but failed to take Québec City and were forced to rapidly withdraw before being chased and defeated at Lake Champlain (on Valcour Island). Nevertheless, American rebels remained in the province of Québec until the arrival of the British fleet on May 6, 1776. The Americans were extremely surprised to learn that their armies had been defeated. Rumours circulated in the United States that the American army had resorted to repressive measures, which led Canadians to actively support the British rather than remain neutral. The Americans were simply victims of their own inexperience; they were ill equipped and had already lost nearly half of their men even before arriving in Québec City. But...I am now getting out of this thread.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 17:25, Danny Kazam wrote: You do know that the US allied itself to Stalinist Russia during WW2 to defeat Fascism and Nazism don't you. Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend even though you too are rivals.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts |
The natives are restless tonight.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Yes, I do. And, we can talk about that without getting all uptight. Why not about Mandela's early past? We don't have to condone everything he did to know he was a good man in the end do we? We don't have to get defensive when his contoversal past is brought up. I think it's more healthy and honest when we do. We can all benifit from learning from the past. How can we though, when no one wants to?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts |
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On 2013-12-09 18:06, Danny Kazam wrote: good point, sir. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
History can be useful in understanding a person's motives. Let Mandela speak for himself. Some more from Mandela's 1964 speech to the court, explaining the reason the ANC took up arms after decades of non-violent resistance.
Quote:
...In 1960 there was the shooting at Sharpeville, which resulted in the proclamation of a state of emergency and the declaration of the ANC as an unlawful organisation. My colleagues and I, after careful consideration, decided that we would not obey this decree. The African people were not part of the government and did not make the laws by which they were governed. We believed in the words of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that 'the will of the people shall be the basis of authority of the government,' and for us to accept the banning was equivalent to accepting the silencing of the Africans for all time. The ANC refused to dissolve, but instead went underground. We believed it was our duty to preserve this organisation which had been built up with almost fifty years of unremitting toil. I have no doubt that no self-respecting white political organisation would disband itself if declared illegal by a government in which it had no say. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/23/nelsonmandela1
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Exactly. Sometimes there is no choice but to fight.
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Slide Special user 533 Posts |
"Yes, I do. And, we can talk about that without getting all uptight. Why not about Mandela's early past? We don't have to condone everything he did to know he was a good man in the end do we? We don't have to get defensive when his contoversal past is brought up. I think it's more healthy and honest when we do. We can all benifit from learning from the past. How can we though, when no one wants to?"
Interesting that we need to now explain why it is a bad idea to bring up a person's controversial past at the moment of his death, but in this day and age when the we have the Westboro baptist church picketing soldiers funerals to make a political point, I guess what used to pass as common courtesy is a foreign concept. We don't bring up things like this now out of respect for those that are mourning and celebrating his life. And out of respect for him. Bringing up whatever was done in the past now is a little like the guy who decides that the eulogy is a good time to settle past scores. You want to start a thread a month from now? a year? go ahead. But most people were hopefully raised better than to fart at a funeral. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Speaking of the good folks of Westboro...
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/07/we......funeral/
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Or celebrating the assassination of Bin Laden, or Muslims killed fighting for their freedom from oppression from the western world. Extremists fighting against western invaders. Acts of violence because of a cause resulting in the deaths of innocent lives. Yes, you would be right if that was the case with everyone.
We dance on graves we call our enemies, but say we align ourselves with enemies to fight the bigger enemy. Mandela aligned himself with those the western world considers to be enemies, and he did so to fight against the bigger enemies. Who were they?
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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