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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Knots and loops » » Cut and Restored Rope for Today's Audiences (33 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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jimgerrish
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The Robert Harbin Cut and Restored Rope allows you to get spectators holding the rope and cutting the rope while you just "apply the magic" to the restoration of the rope. I added some updated technology to his original premise and it allows you to add the "Ghost Rope" moves to his already deceptive handling. You'll find it in The Wizards' Journal #30 if interested.
Pop Haydn
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TrickyRicky
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Quote:
On Sep 24, 2015, TrickyRicky wrote:
Hi there Mr Oslund.
I don't recall getting back to you on the Eric Lewis rope routine.
If you're still having a problem finding it please pm me.
Tricky Ricky

Eric Lewis cut and restored routine appears that you did cut the rope in the middle and that you really have two pieces. The restoration also set everything up for the second cut across two strand which is then restored.
Tricky Ricky
Riley
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No comment on Pop Haydn's routine????????

Well, I think this is a routine for modern day audiences (like everything Whit does)

Funny and entertaining and a joy to watch.
Dick Oslund
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Riley!

Yes! I agree.

About 45 years ago, the late Dennis Loomis and I, developed a routine that involved the "ancient" Karl Germaine concept (which evolved from the even more ancient Kellar idea. The late Ken Allen had published a routine in the early 50s that he called, "If you like it", Ken and I were friends. His routine followed quite naturally with the Edward Victor C&R. Denny and I, used Slydini's idea (using the Victor idea to set up for the late Bob Carver's Profesor's Nightmare. Then, we did the Nightmare, and, followed that with a (bluff) restoration of the three Nightmare ropes. This last restoration was before the Conway restoration was published (by Ken Brooke, I think).

I used this in the high school program for about 5 or 6 years, as my opener. It was fast moving, visual, and, it played very well. Both Denny and I used it. We bought rope, a dozen spools at a time!!! (Denny "broke the record" at Abbott's with the largest rope order that they had ever had!)

I have Pop Haydn's "Mongolian Pop Knot" booklet. Pop's Mongolian has some similarities to what Denny and I were doing. (We've never met. He arrived at his excellent routine, independently.) I LIKE IT!!! At my age, and, being retired, I'm not going to perform it. But, I would certainly recommend it to anyone who is interested in an entertaining rope routine!

>>> Of course, "PRESENTATION always beats METHOD"! --and, Pop's presentation is an absolute delight!. <<<

I "go back" to Tarbell's C&R, with the Caesar gimmicks. I was acquainted with Doc Tarbell. I knew Conrad Haden (who made Caesar gimmicks!). I knew George Sands. I've been "doing" rope "stuff" since reading Ralph W. Hull's "Fifteen Minutes With A Piece Of Rope", about 70 years ago. I also recommend my friend Daryl Martinez' "Expert Rope Magic, Made Easy" DVDs, and Abbott's Encyclopedia of Rope Tricks, which was first written by another friend, Stewart James. (I'm not a "First o' May"!)

P.S.! Re: Professor's Nightmare. Another friend, the late Karrell Fox, in his "Clever Like A Fox", page 125, described, IMO, the cleanest set up, and "clean up" for the Nightmare. He showed it to me before the book was published. (We never discussed it, but, I believe he had realized that the move used in Gen Grant's "Perfect C&R Rope", could be used to set up Carver's Nightmare.

Truly! We stand on the shoulders of those great thinkers who came before us!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
siepielski
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Pop Haydn's routine is a worker for all audiences.
Al Schneider
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Dougini
I appreciate your interest in the pull concept for cut and restored rope. This prompts me to ask a question about C and R. Roughly, there are three methods to achieve this effect. I will call the most basic method the end method. The next I will call the add method sometimes using a TT. The third I will call the pull method. There are a variety of ways to achieve each method. The pull method has the advantage that once cut; the halves can be shown to be really far apart indicating the cut was real. The question is this, is one superior to the other? In my mind when a normal person holds up a piece of rope before a number of people and cuts it, that person would feel compelled to hold the pieces apart to show it has been cut. In the first two methods, the performer has a death grip on the two halves ignoring the expectation to show them separate.

I understand there are ways to overcome this. I personally, tie the ends together immediately to avoid that death grip.

A common answer to this question is that the method does not matter. It is the entertainment value that counts.

I remember when I was in grade school and a magician came to class to do magic. I was very excited about it. During the show, everyone loved the guy. However, I was disappointed. I did not think the guy did much magic. I laughed like everyone else and had a good time. But I felt deceived. The guy did not do much magic. And most of it utilized a box or tube of some kind. Does my nine year old opinion count years before I thought of doing magic?

I understand the needs of the pro. He must please the guy that hired him, he must please the audience he stands before, and he must produce to get more gigs. But, is laughter a replacement for that feeling of the magic moment? About that time, our family went to see Blackstone Senior do his full stage act. The cigarette, ball, and card manipulation kept me on the edge of my seat. When he produced a bunny and wrapped it in paper changing the bunny into a box of candy, I felt like I was wasting my time.

This question is asked from the point of view that a goal in magic is to tip the audience’s mind out of whack. After performing one of my coin effects, the helper is locked into motionlessness. The person is so shocked by what they saw, they don’t move. Normally, the person next to the helper takes the props out of the helper’s hands to see the finally.

The pull method has the power to produce that effect.

Thoughts?
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Ray Pierce
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I agree about the pull. The original hold out method although wonderful still suffers from the lack of rope separation after the cut. I do remember the first time I saw the Bill Neff Miracle Rope trick... it astounded me and looked as close to real magic as it could get. For a single effect that seems hard to beat from an audience standpoint. On the other hand if we are talking about the true amazement that comes from repetition and conflicting methods, it is hard to deny the power of the Sandsationall rope routine or his other routine, Ropesational by George Sands. It seems that so many other routines such as Fiber Optics and others all owe a huge debt gratitude to these original routines which people don't seem to remember. These weaknesses of not separating the hands are wonderfully managed by the storyline which leads the spectator forward and away from potential methods as well as providing a great amount of pure entertainment and fun.
Ray Pierce
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Dick Oslund
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Al -- and -- Ray....

Will Lindhorst St. Louis, MO dealer) sold the "Vanishing Bird Cage Rope Trick" years before Percy sold Bill Neff's C&R. I have Will's MIMEOGRAPHED ad sheet describing it.

The late Harold Denhard (Chicago) wrote a booklet ("How To Do Rope Tricks" -- pub. Magic Inc.) and performed the "Neff" C&R BEFORE Percy sold it.

Incidentally, Dariel Fitzkee wrote "Rope Eternal" (the only SIX ways to C&R a rope. I don't remember the date, but, I can check my copy (in storage).

I published the "Convincer Count" in my book last year. (I "found it" in an old magazine from the '30s (SPHINX, I think)

In "tying" the "cut ends", what knot do you use? The late Dr. Daley "invented" the Daley Knot in the '40s. I've used it since the very early '50s. (One can't join two pieces of rope with an OVERHAND knot.)

The late JACK CHANIN and I had a "session" in '54. He showed me a few "touches" that clean up the handling.

I published all the above in my recent book.

Yes! KELLAR and GERMAINE's C&R principle certainly "improved" Scot's "Discovery of Witchcraft" method! (I've used them) and George Sands, whom I knew, should get the credit as "godfather" of Fiber Optics!

Oh! the late LEON MAGUIRE should not be forgotten either! He "changed the moment" in Edward Victor's method. it's published in Hugard's in the '40s.
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Al Schneider
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Well, thank you for telling us that.
How is the book selling these days?
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Dick Oslund
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You're most welcome Al!

Both the book and the DVD are selling well. They are now being read, and, watched on three continents (North & South America, Europe, and Australia. (Oh! and, Minneapolis,too! --hee hee)

BTW...The "One-Two-One" principle, with a slight adaptation, can provide an instant, visible restoration. The two cut pieces can't be shown separately, but, the instant restoration is very strong.
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Ray Pierce
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Dick, you are a fount of knowledge as always, thanks!
Ray Pierce
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Al Schneider
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Mr. Oslund
I have had a small booklet out for some time titled simply, "Cut and Restored Rope" by Al Schneider. It is a very basic CR routine intended for professional use. The second restoration is, as you say, instantaneous. I have been using it for about 50 years. How does it differ from "One-Two-One?"
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Dick Oslund
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Al...Are you familiar with Gen Grant's "One-Two-One Rope"? If not, PM me.
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Al Schneider
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Found a video of it.

https://youtu.be/Okb9Szy347Y

I have been familiar with it but just did not know its name.

Here is a description of my routine.

http://www.worldmagiccenter.com/MAGIC1/c......aaab.htm

They are two totally different effects.

You may question the purpose of this little book. It was to be one of many small books presenting the classics of magic.
These are aimed at magicians new to magic. Just basic presentations of classic effects.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Dick Oslund
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YUP, That's the one-two-one~! BUT 'ALLA KAZAM" IS NOT THE INVENTOR! IT'S GEN GRANT'S. GRANT BOUGHT THAT OUT ABOUT FIFTY YEARS AGO! I have the original instructions which were provided. There is even a "2" handling included. I used it in 1971 to open my PUZZLING ENVIRONMENT PROGRAM which I presented 335 times in the season of '71/'72 for Dakota Assemblies. Jay Marshall published my complete program in one of the 'SUCCESS" BOOKS. I've been using it since, in my "regular" program. (Gene Gordon published a routine for it, which I believe is reprinted in the "Gene Gordon Legacy" by David Ginn.

I looked at the Amazon ad. It appears that you are using the Bob Ellis' "VISHNU technique" (TARBELL, VOL VI). I remember Jay Marshall adding it to his rope routine back in the early '70s. Vishnu still has the "weakness" of the timing of the necessary move, but the scissors does help somewhat. I, personally prefer Leon Maguire's idea which he published in Hugard's in the mid '40s. (De gustibus non est disputandum!).

The one-two-one basic method can be adapted to a visual flash restoration, which IMHO rivals the "vanishing bird cage C&R rope, sold by Will Lindhorst in the late '30s. I wont go into detail here. Feel free to PM me, if you wish.

Let's not kid ourselves! The PURPOSE of the routine described and SOLD on AMAZON, is to make money!!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Al Schneider
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Yes it is the Vishnu move.

"Vishnu still has the "weakness" of the timing of the necessary move"

What are you talking about? The Vishnu move is the superior move to accomplish the cut.
You sound like a beginner worrying about how a move looks.
To my knowledge Karrell Fox used it in every show.
It is an outstanding move.
It is vastly better than flipping a loop up and holding it in a tight fist.
Perhaps the "Leon Maguire's idea" is superior.
But I don't know what that is.
You are always throwing these terms out without any regard to the understanding of the reader.
In other words you are a committed name dropper.
You could give us a clue what you are talking about.
But you go on and on with reference after reference without regard to the understanding of the reader.
OK, you are an old timer that has paid his dues.
GOT IT.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
funsway
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Quote:
On Apr 25, 2016, Ray Pierce wrote:
These weaknesses of not separating the hands a


Various methods of apparently showing the ends to be separate has always fascinated me (both actual and psychological approaches)

When Ian Garrison stayed with me several years ago we discussed and compared these methods and came up with some new "wrinkles."
If there is real interest here, it is perhaps time to write some of them up. Some are method specific, other based on psychological ploys.

There are two more approaches to C&R than the three claimed by Al. One is discussed in my eBook RemCut that I have used about 50 years.
I learned the basic principle in my teens but have enhanced it in several ways -- some because of MagicIan input.

The other is an accidental discovery that I have never seen in print. Neither had Ian. I have never used it enough to justify publishing.

But Al says there are only three methods, so it must be true. Smile

Within that restriction the "disMbody" methodology provides superior handling to all three methods as they can be combined, e.g.
the "ends" can be changed to "pull."

I appreciate the input from both Dick and Al as to experience, but am not limited by either.

It isn't a contest, guys -- just a forum from which we all can learn.

What is important is the theme of this thread -- what will work with today's audience and is it worth the effort?

What I do know is that many methods do not play well on DVD so younger cohorts may never learn them (or desire to.)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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ROBERT BLAKE
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What are your thoughts on the Slydini routine?
Al Schneider
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Funsway
As usual, you claim I said something that I did not.

I said, "Roughly, there are three methods to achieve this effect."

I understand there are more. My goal was to further the discussion of what do audience's like. This was sidetracked. Now you dis me by saying that I think I am the master of all this. Then you play the "I am superior to all" game by saying you have several "advanced" technologies without revealing what they are. Can we see a clip of them so we can join in on the fun? Oh, I forgot, you can't.

Can we continue the discussion without this posturing. I asked the question, what are the pluses and negatives of end, add, and pull techniques.

Can we continue with Mr. Blake's question about the Slydini routine. Can we have a few words of how that is different?
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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