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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The Fearsome Mi-24 Hind D Helicopter (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

General_Magician
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I have to say, the Russians designed a pretty good chopper when they designed the Hind D . I certainly would not want to be somebody who has a one of those choppers pop up next to me ready to waste me. The Afghans during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan said that they feared only two things: God and the Russian choppers. I believe them too when they say the feared the Russian choppers. That particular combat helicopter could take .50 cal rounds and not be brought down. A very heavily armored chopper. I was watching a documentary on this chopper and the Soviets designed it this way because they studied our conclusions from the Vietnam war in that our conclusions was that the Heuy choppers was not armored enough and was vulnerable to small arms and anti-aircraft fire.

So the Soviets learned from our after action review studies when they designed the Hind D and made it able to withstand .50 cal rounds and 37 millimeter anti-aircraft fire. You know you are in a world of crap when a fearsome hornet looking chopper pops up next to you and pump it full of .50 cal rounds and it has no effect. For those who are not aware, .50 cal rounds easily cut trees down with no problems. I also read where the Afghans said during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan: "We Afghans need only two things- The Qu'ran and more stinger missiles." I can see why they needed more stinger missiles since it would seem to be the only effective weapon to bring down the Hind chopper. And of course the massive firepower and how those choppers rained down death during the Soviet occupation.
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Choppers or no choppers, they still got their a**es handed to them. A not irrelevant lesson.
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They have their Hind, we've got the A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka Warthog)- just as much a gunship, it can lose half a wing and still fly back home.

Of course, for sheer firepower, there's always the Lockheed AC-130.
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General_Magician
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On 2013-12-12 13:33, EsnRedshirt wrote:
They have their Hind, we've got the A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka Warthog)- just as much a gunship, it can lose half a wing and still fly back home.

Of course, for sheer firepower, there's always the Lockheed AC-130.


Ohh yeah, the A-10 is a great plane. I was reading the air force was going to get rid of it due to budget cuts. Shame to hear that. It has great combat survivability much like the Soviet Hind D and to my knowledge the Soviets never really had an equivalent to the A-10 (they had the Su-25 but I don't think it was as good a plane as the A-10). Lockheed AC-130 definitely can rain down hell, fire and brimstone.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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General_Magician
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On 2013-12-12 13:31, landmark wrote:
Choppers or no choppers, they still got their a**es handed to them. A not irrelevant lesson.


Well, one reason why they got their asses handed to them was because the whole population turned against them due to the initial Soviet scorched earth policy. They were pretty ruthless in their occupation. From a documentary I was watching, when Soviet troops first went into combat, they were practicing a scorched earth policy. Basically, the Hind D's had free reign to fire on anything that were not using "official" roads. So they randomly wiped out whole villages. Here is a scene from the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSpRWfB-tBg Later on, from what I saw on a documentary, when Gorby came to power, he restricted the free reign the Hind D's had to randomly target villages. I remember one Afghan remarking on a documentary I watched that nobody can appreciate or respect the amount of death and destruction these choppers can reign down unless they were unfortunate enough to survive such an attack from one or a few of them. The Afghans, before getting stingers, learned to set up RPG rocket traps to bring down some of the Hind Ds, but they weren't nearly as effective as the stinger missile at bringing the choppers down.
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General_Magician
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Here is one of the documentaries I was watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83UTKYPVbHs
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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S2000magician
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I designed multiple explosively-formed penetrator (MEFP) warheads for an anti-helicopter mine (AHM) program; the Hind D was a specific target (along with the Havoc, and the Hokum). The intent was to stop the gunships flying through the Khyber pass.

In my view, the most interesting part of the system wasn't the warhead; it was the sensor: passive accoustic. Helicopters make a lot of noise, and these accoustic sensors could identify a particular model of gunship by its sound, and isolate (and track) a single gunship within a squadron. The warhead was on a gimbal, so it would track the target to its closest point of approach, then detonate (hence, it was always a broadside or belly shot). They were lethal to at least 100m, so the pilots had a choice: fly low and fast (nap-of-the-earth) and take their chances with the AHMs, or fly above 100m and try to outrun Stinger missiles.

It was hard to test the sensors without a real helicopter. The power that generates the noise is on the order of 700hp; that's about 50,000 watts. It's not easy finding a sound system that can put out 50,000 watts (and can be maneuvered past a sensor at 100 mph) to test the system's tracking ability.
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On 2013-12-12 16:20, S2000magician wrote:
I designed multiple explosively-formed penetrator (MEFP) warheads for an anti-helicopter mine (AHM) program; the Hind D was a specific target (along with the Havoc, and the Hokum). The intent was to stop the gunships flying through the Khyber pass.

In my view, the most interesting part of the system wasn't the warhead; it was the sensor: passive accoustic. Helicopters make a lot of noise, and these accoustic sensors could identify a particular model of gunship by its sound, and isolate (and track) a single gunship within a squadron. The warhead was on a gimbal, so it would track the target to its closest point of approach, then detonate (hence, it was always a broadside or belly shot). They were lethal to at least 100m, so the pilots had a choice: fly low and fast (nap-of-the-earth) and take their chances with the AHMs, or fly above 100m and try to outrun Stinger missiles.

It was hard to test the sensors without a real helicopter. The power that generates the noise is on the order of 700hp; that's about 50,000 watts. It's not easy finding a sound system that can put out 50,000 watts (and can be maneuvered past a sensor at 100 mph) to test the system's tracking ability.


If it wasn't for brain power like yours S2000, our guys would be doomed on the battlefield. Believe me, we appreciate and respect good engineering and design. Some of the work you did probably helped to save lives.

I give credit to the Soviets though for reading our studies on our experience in Vietnam and learning from it when it came to designing the Mi-24 Hind. They made a good chopper. Fortunately, we have smart people like yourself who can design weapons systems to bring it down too.
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Quote:
On 2013-12-12 16:50, General_Magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-12-12 16:20, S2000magician wrote:
I designed multiple explosively-formed penetrator (MEFP) warheads for an anti-helicopter mine (AHM) program; the Hind D was a specific target (along with the Havoc, and the Hokum). The intent was to stop the gunships flying through the Khyber pass.

In my view, the most interesting part of the system wasn't the warhead; it was the sensor: passive accoustic. Helicopters make a lot of noise, and these accoustic sensors could identify a particular model of gunship by its sound, and isolate (and track) a single gunship within a squadron. The warhead was on a gimbal, so it would track the target to its closest point of approach, then detonate (hence, it was always a broadside or belly shot). They were lethal to at least 100m, so the pilots had a choice: fly low and fast (nap-of-the-earth) and take their chances with the AHMs, or fly above 100m and try to outrun Stinger missiles.

It was hard to test the sensors without a real helicopter. The power that generates the noise is on the order of 700hp; that's about 50,000 watts. It's not easy finding a sound system that can put out 50,000 watts (and can be maneuvered past a sensor at 100 mph) to test the system's tracking ability.

If it wasn't for brain power like yours S2000, our guys would be doomed on the battlefield. Believe me, we appreciate and respect good engineering and design. Some of the work you did probably helped to save lives.

Sometimes one can be too clever.

If you look up images of the SLAM (Selectable Lightweight Attack Munition), you'll find a number of designs, none of which are mine. When the preliminary RFP came out for the program, I designed (and we built and tested a prototype of) a 4-penetrator MEFP warhead that met the specs to defeat the targets of interest. However, when the actual RFP was issued, ARDEC had changed the spec: the armor penetration requirement had been doubled. (The targets of interest hadn't changed, but the spec was changed as a proxy for measuring behind-armor-debris (BAD), which is difficult to measure directly.) There wasn't enough time to change the design, and build and test a new prototype, so we couldn't include test data in the proposal. As a consequence, Alliant Techsystem (now ATK) won the program with an inferior, 1-penetrator design that they'd built and tested. In the debrief, the ARDEC contracting officer apologized to me, saying that my design was clearly superior to ATK's, but that it had never occurred to anyone at ARDEC that a multi-penetrator design would work: they changed the spec based on a single penetrator warhead. My design was so far ahead of their thinking that they couldn't even imagine it.

Sigh.
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Speaking of cleaver, Leonid Brezhnev, a very clever fellow and was still the leader of Soviet Union in 1970s, but apparently he had stated to go senile by then. The intelligent services of the West saw a weakness and attack it. They came up with idea of recruiting terrorists in Afghanistan, which had not been defeated since Hannibal, and sending them across the border into the USSR to commit acts therein. Which might provoke the USSR, under the senile old Brezhnev, to invade Afghanistan. Where of course it was thought the USSR might be possible to defeat the USSR. It was a diabolical idea but a very cleaver one. So it was written so was done. The USSR was also playing games and in 1978 got a small group Afghans communist to take over the government in Afghanistan. However all that did was act as recruiting agent for the CIA. In 1979 Brezhnev had had just about enough of these terrorist and ordered his Army to invade. These Afghanistan terrorists were known as Al Queda, the Base, by virtue of that being the name of the CIA computer base where their names where kept. Brezhnev died 1983 and the war lasted nine years. It is thought the Big Z, Zbigniew Brzezinski, came up with the idea. That is the word the street anyway. Smile
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General_Magician
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Quote:
On 2013-12-12 17:16, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-12-12 16:50, General_Magician wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-12-12 16:20, S2000magician wrote:
I designed multiple explosively-formed penetrator (MEFP) warheads for an anti-helicopter mine (AHM) program; the Hind D was a specific target (along with the Havoc, and the Hokum). The intent was to stop the gunships flying through the Khyber pass.

In my view, the most interesting part of the system wasn't the warhead; it was the sensor: passive accoustic. Helicopters make a lot of noise, and these accoustic sensors could identify a particular model of gunship by its sound, and isolate (and track) a single gunship within a squadron. The warhead was on a gimbal, so it would track the target to its closest point of approach, then detonate (hence, it was always a broadside or belly shot). They were lethal to at least 100m, so the pilots had a choice: fly low and fast (nap-of-the-earth) and take their chances with the AHMs, or fly above 100m and try to outrun Stinger missiles.

It was hard to test the sensors without a real helicopter. The power that generates the noise is on the order of 700hp; that's about 50,000 watts. It's not easy finding a sound system that can put out 50,000 watts (and can be maneuvered past a sensor at 100 mph) to test the system's tracking ability.

If it wasn't for brain power like yours S2000, our guys would be doomed on the battlefield. Believe me, we appreciate and respect good engineering and design. Some of the work you did probably helped to save lives.

Sometimes one can be too clever.

If you look up images of the SLAM (Selectable Lightweight Attack Munition), you'll find a number of designs, none of which are mine. When the preliminary RFP came out for the program, I designed (and we built and tested a prototype of) a 4-penetrator MEFP warhead that met the specs to defeat the targets of interest. However, when the actual RFP was issued, ARDEC had changed the spec: the armor penetration requirement had been doubled. (The targets of interest hadn't changed, but the spec was changed as a proxy for measuring behind-armor-debris (BAD), which is difficult to measure directly.) There wasn't enough time to change the design, and build and test a new prototype, so we couldn't include test data in the proposal. As a consequence, Alliant Techsystem (now ATK) won the program with an inferior, 1-penetrator design that they'd built and tested. In the debrief, the ARDEC contracting officer apologized to me, saying that my design was clearly superior to ATK's, but that it had never occurred to anyone at ARDEC that a multi-penetrator design would work: they changed the spec based on a single penetrator warhead. My design was so far ahead of their thinking that they couldn't even imagine it.

Sigh.


This is an interesting little device. I have never seen one of these before (this particular little hand held mine). I was looking up the longbow Apache attack choppers and the Russian's latest chopper the Mi-28 havoc. Both seem to be very good choppers. You know, looking up this stuff kinda sparked a fascination for technology. Technology is amazing isn't it? I think both us and the Russians have done a good job in developing attack helicopters. Seems like it would be a toss up between the Havoc and the Apache, but I don't know much about either one and I am sure it's because both sides try to keep some capabilities for each chopper a secret and for good reason. But they both seems like really good helicopters. From the documentary I watched on the Hind-D, the Russians learned from their experience in Afghanistan to improve upon the weakness of the Hind-D and made a better helicopter with the Havoc.
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Hen I did my warhead design work, one day we were driving up US395 for a meeting at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake. As we came up over a hill we saw the single, scariest object I've ever encountered whilst driving (or doing pretty much anything else): an Apache gunship was hovering over the highway, facing us. Armed.
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On 2013-12-12 23:28, General_Magician wrote:
This is an interesting little device. I have never seen one of these before (this particular little hand held mine).

Amongst the requirements was that it had to be of a size that would fit into the standard pockets on a soldier's belt.

Some of the technology (e.g., the anti-tamper mechanism) that we incorporated into our SLAM design was quite impressive.

I note from that link of pictures I posted that ATK got a patent on the SLAM. And to think that my name should have been on that patent. (I know (or know of) the gentlemen whose names are on it; the warhead design community is small.)
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My reproductive organ is very large. Talk about a warhead! I am my own gunship. Afghans beware!
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I note from that link of pictures I posted that ATK got a patent on the SLAM. And to think that my name should have been on that patent. (I know (or know of) the gentlemen whose names are on it; the warhead design community is small.)


If your designs are superior then fight for your designs and make sure you get your name on the patents. Soldiers need the best equipment they can get. I guarantee you the enemy is putting his best foot forward and looking to out design and produce better equipment than us and he means business. Sub-par equipment costs the lives of our service members. You have an important job. I am sure if you ask some of the Nam vets, they will tell you the designs of the M16A1 was substandard and costed lives un-necessarily in Vietnam when the weapon jammed up in a firefight with the enemy. Soldiers need the best designed equipment possible, not sub-par equipment. Can't afford to have sub-par equipment. Sometimes, in order to ensure our service members get the best equipment, you will have to fight your designs if you sincerely believe they are superior and make sure you get proper credit too by getting your name on the patents of your own designs and ideas. When you look at it from the perspective that your job is about keeping our service members alive, it takes on a great importance.

That is what your job is really all about. It's about life and death of our service members and possibly our nation (if another country ever gets a military edge on us, it could potentially put our national survival in jeopardy). Nobody likes destroying things, but unfortunately, this is not an idealistic world and we have to have a strong military with the best equipment to safeguard our nation, interests and to deter and hopefully prevent war. It's like the old Roman saying, if you want peace, then prepare for war. Your job is an important part in helping to create and maintain peace as ironic or Orwellian as might seem. But it is a fact of life and their is great wisdom in that Roman proverb "if you want peace, then prepare for war." It's what kept the peace between the Soviet Union and the US during the Cold War (in that we did not directly fight each other because of the deterrence value of both militaries to achieve the prevention of war between the two super-powers).
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S2000, if you don't mind my asking, where does one learn to design such weapons?
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It's not easy finding a sound system that can put out 50,000 watts (and can be maneuvered past a sensor at 100 mph) to test the system's tracking ability.


I'm pretty sure there was one in a pickup that passed me on the freeway this morning.
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On 2013-12-13 13:23, landmark wrote:
S2000, if you don't mind my asking, where does one learn to design such weapons?

I fell into it.

I was working for another defense contractor - in a job I didn't enjoy (long story) - and was looking for a new job when a university classmate phoned be to say that he'd been demonstrating a CAD/CAM system to a company of warhead designers who said that they were looking for another employee. He didn't know that I was looking for a new job, but - serendipity - I landed this one.

One of the other designers was a mathematician as well, so we hit it off immediately. The design work is mostly creating a shape (we had to write our own software for doing this; the commercial CAD software wasn't remotely adequate), running a hydrocode simulation, modifying the shape, rerunning the simulation, and so on until you get the desired results. I automated a lot of the iterative processes, and came up with some clever ideas for doing so. The "learning" was mostly trying new things, and coming up with new ideas, then developing the software to put it into practice.

We also had to develop all of the software to run the numerically controlled milling machines and lathes to make the parts we were designing. Again, the commercial CAM software wasn't even close to being up to the task.

The best part is going to the warhead tests and having things explode, then looking at the results. We would get flash x-rays of the projectiles in flight during their formation, so we could calibrate the hydrocode models to match the characteristics of the materials we were using.
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One of my neighbours, an old professor, worked on guided missiles. His house is like walking into the NASA control centre. He is or was rather, computer crazy. I can't remember now the names of the actual weapons he worked on. It was over my head what he talked about but the work was something like what you are talking about.
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