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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Ash-Diary of an 8 year old schizophrenic (54 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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takeachance
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Talking about issues Rick, while your here can you check your inbox please and answer, thanks
Al Desmond
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Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Roth wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Al Desmond wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Roth wrote:
Everything is not what it seems with Alice. Not trying to tease, but she does have a multiple personality disorder.
-Rick


I'm now a little confused. The cover of the book you displayed a number of comments back says "childhood schizophrenia" and the title of this thread is "Ash-Diary of an 8 year old schizophrenic," yet you say above she has MPD. They are not the same disorder, no where near the same. Isn't that a LARGE hole in this concept? Explain?


There are many clinical documentations of the rare combination of a subject having both disorders. Rare in children. Over 200 documented cases that were studied.

It can be presented as either. Alice has issues with reality and who she is.


I wouldn't mind seeing a link to those studies. I spent 3 years researching and developing the stage version of "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden," one of the definitive fictionalize accounts of schizophrenia, and my play also delves into the real life of Dr. Fried (the books fictionalized doctor) who was Dr. Frieda Fromm-Reichmann. I worked with the "Rose Garden" books author Joanne Greenberg (the subject of "Rose Garden") and Fromm-Reichmann's biographer Dr. Gail Hornstein.

This topic came up many times, both in my research, discussions with Greenberg and Dr. Hornstein, and in scouring related books on the subject. And that included talk backs with the cast of the original stage show and a number of well know psychiatrists, where that subject came up from the cast asking questions during rehearsals.

While a schizophrenic can have a disassociative break with themselves, they do not ever have one of their "voices" in their head, or one of the characters in their inner world suddenly take over their own personality. The closest I can see happening is that the person is misdiagnosed with one disorder or the other.

I'm not trying to cause trouble. Not that I can't script it out and work with it but I wouldn't mind a link to an actual scholarly discussion on your ascertains.
Roth
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No where in her diary is there any reference by Alice to any type of disorder. You can make the presentation yours. There is something definitely wrong with her. The study says Schizophrenia. Now a days it could have been diagnosed many ways. This was 55 years ago and the child was never actually diagnosed, only her diary was.

You will love what you can do with this book Al. I have faith in you to blow yer audience away Smile
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Doc Ben
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Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Al Desmond wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Roth wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Al Desmond wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Roth wrote:
Everything is not what it seems with Alice. Not trying to tease, but she does have a multiple personality disorder.
-Rick


I'm now a little confused. The cover of the book you displayed a number of comments back says "childhood schizophrenia" and the title of this thread is "Ash-Diary of an 8 year old schizophrenic," yet you say above she has MPD. They are not the same disorder, no where near the same. Isn't that a LARGE hole in this concept? Explain?


There are many clinical documentations of the rare combination of a subject having both disorders. Rare in children. Over 200 documented cases that were studied.

It can be presented as either. Alice has issues with reality and who she is.


I wouldn't mind seeing a link to those studies. I spent 3 years researching and developing the stage version of "I Never Promised You A Rose Garden," one of the definitive fictionalize accounts of schizophrenia, and my play also delves into the real life of Dr. Fried (the books fictionalized doctor) who was Dr. Frieda Fromm-Reichmann. I worked with the "Rose Garden" books author Joanne Greenberg (the subject of "Rose Garden") and Fromm-Reichmann's biographer Dr. Gail Hornstein.

This topic came up many times, both in my research, discussions with Greenberg and Dr. Hornstein, and in scouring related books on the subject. And that included talk backs with the cast of the original stage show and a number of well know psychiatrists, where that subject came up from the cast asking questions during rehearsals.

While a schizophrenic can have a disassociative break with themselves, they do not ever have one of their "voices" in their head, or one of the characters in their inner world suddenly take over their own personality. The closest I can see happening is that the person is misdiagnosed with one disorder or the other.

I'm not trying to cause trouble. Not that I can't script it out and work with it but I wouldn't mind a link to an actual scholarly discussion on your ascertains.

I have over 50 yrs experience inserios mental illness and a professional degree.
The DSM (diagnostic manual) used by psychiatry has altered various diagnosis over the past few decades, so what is incuded as an "Axis I and/or Axis II diagnosis (there are five axes in the diagnostic coding and statistical system) has changed over the years.
But the point I want to make is that certain personality disorders (e.g. "Borderline Personality Disorder" BPD) is not an unusual Axis II diagnostic category. So, although granted to be very rare as any diagnosis of childhood schizophrenia is, an Axis II diagnosis of MPD, multiple personality disorder is within reason,
Inmy early career days I was assigned to a young woman in her twenties, a twin who had been with her sister at age 18 months when the twin dramatically and drastically die. I t was notthe only source of her trauma, but during hehospitaization with a diagnosis of schizophrenia which was not resondng well to treatment, she was seen by specialist of Harvard Medical School, who ended up adding a diagnosis of Multiple Personality Disorder, which actualy is now coded as DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder.
So, please Al, realize, these diagnoses are not rooted in a science like physics, but mental health "science" is still not as far along as the "hard" sciences.
ASH will be a credible offering to perform...!!
Smile
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" (the original F. Baum)
Bill Cushman
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The world of DSM diagnosis is every bit as political and reflective of the culture at large as it is medically based. While the medications for schizophrenia are improved over what was available when I came into the field 30 years ago, our actual knowledge about schizophrenia and D.I.D remains limited. That fifty-five years ago Ash could have been dianosed with both or either, along with a host of other "disorders," is completely consistent. It all seems grist for the backstory mill in any case, something to savor in developing your performance and spin as you wish, and definitely not something to fret over.

(By the way, during a quick google search I came across someone who stated that their primary diagnosis is D.I.D but one of their alters suffers from schizophrenia!)
Bill Cushman
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Actually such diagnosis still occurs today. Between 2004 and 2011, I was working in a program that specialized in treating people diagnosed with with D.I.D. Many of them had received diagnoses of schizophrenia early in life, along with other diagnoses, before receiving an MPD or DID diagnossis and receiving treatment that addressed their trauma background. Again, the limitations of science and larger societal forces are at play as diagnoses wax and wane in popularity. More backstory if you so desire!
Al Desmond
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Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Bill Cushman wrote:
The world of DSM diagnosis is every bit as political and reflective of the culture at large as it is medically based. While the medications for schizophrenia are improved over what was available when I came into the field 30 years ago, our actual knowledge about schizophrenia and D.I.D remains limited. That fifty-five years ago Ash could have been dianosed with both or either, along with a host of other "disorders," is completely consistent. It all seems grist for the backstory mill in any case, something to savor in developing your performance and spin as you wish, and definitely not something to fret over.

(By the way, during a quick google search I came across someone who stated that their primary diagnosis is D.I.D but one of their alters suffers from schizophrenia!)


I will take your last line as humor?

And all I said was I never heard of someone being diagnosed with both, at the same time, nor did any of the professionals I was dealing with during my 3 years of research. In searches I came across a lot of forums where people were basically self-diagnosing that they had schizophrenia and D.I.D, but nary a case study.

Over the years it has been argued that Joanne Greenberg herself was misdiagnosed and there has been claims that she was not cured of schizophrenia, because she never had it. Some doctors claimed that she was actually suffering from a somatization disorder.

I have no doubt "Ash" will be one of the best tests that Outlaw has ever produced. I am not questioning the value of the product. And I understand it is a prop, not a masters thesis. And Rick knows that I respect him and his products, beyond fail. I simply had questions, I simply am doing my due-diligence. I normally write my own scripts for these sort of props and I was asking questions in preparation for working with this prop.

(And no one has still produced a link to a diagnosed case of schizophrenia/D.I.D)
Al Desmond
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Anyway...

I am so looking forward to getting my hands on this... especially now since I made such a stink about it Smile
Bill Cushman
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Al, that last line was not at all humor but a quote from an online forum. I don't make light of such things.

Diagnoses follow people around for life. So someone, like a number of men and women in the treatment program I mentioned, can easily be given the diagnosis of schizophrenia early on then diagnosed with D.I.D. years later and both would be mentioned in any decent evaluation.

I'm not about to do a thorough review of the literature over this but upon a quick search there is nothing jumping out at me to suggest there is a definitive answer to whether or not shcizophrenia and D.I.D. can be comorbid or not. I certainly don't see anything in the criteria where one would exclude the other so there is no reason to believe them mutually exclusive. The one reference to a psychiatric text dealing with this topic that I came across said it is rare. But rare means it exists in their opionion. Ash seems pretty rare as well.

But for me, again, the lack of any firm answer to this question if anything suggests possible plotlines. It is all so speculative that I predict you can find data to support whatever position you hold or want to weave into a backstory for Ash.
reese
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I see a possibility to use a presentation where any diagnosis is under doubt... leading to a supernatural explanation gaining credence.
Merlinsmagic
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I could see Roth complimenting this with "Alice's toy box".......... Smile
Doc Ben
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[quote]On May 1, 2014, Al Desmond wrote:
Quote:
On May 1, 2014, Bill Cushman wrote:
The world of DSM diagnosis is every bit as political and reflective of the culture at large as it is medically based. While the medications for schizophrenia are improved over what was available when I came into the field 30 years ago, our actual knowledge about schizophrenia and D.I.D remains limited. That fifty-five years ago Ash could have been dianosed with both or either, along with a host of other "disorders," is completely consistent. It all seems grist for the backstory mill in any case, something to savor in developing your performance and spin as you wish, and definitely not something to fret over.

Al, I
I will
And all I said was I never heard of someone being diagnosed with both, at the same time, nor did any of the professionals I was dealing with during my 3 years of research. In searches I came across a lot of forums where people were basically self-diagnosing that they had schizophrenia and D.I.D, but nary a case study.

Over the years it has been argued that Joanne Greenberg herself was misdiagnosed and there has been claims that she was not cured of schizophrenia, because she never had it. Some doctors claimed that she was actually suffering from a somatization disorder.

I have no doubt "Ash" will be one of the best tests that Outlaw has ever produced. I am not questioning the value of the product. And I understand it is a prop, not a masters thesis. And Rick knows that I respect him and his products, beyond fail. I simply had questions, I simply am doing my due-diligence. I normally write my own scripts for these sort of props and I was asking questions in preparation for working with this prop.

(And no one has still produced a link to a diagnosed case of schizophrenia/D.I.D)

Al, apparently you did not understand that I personally worked with the patient I mentioned, the twin diagnosed with Scizophrenia and MPD. I would not, nor could, not reveal her name, which I still remember, and I am not sure what link would satisfy you...but I am teling you of an actual, real case...not a link to some report. INMHO you will be able to create a very credible and convincing script and a performance of ASH despite your concern for such details. Smile
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" (the original F. Baum)
guyactor
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On May 1, 2014, Merlinsmagic wrote:
I could see Roth complimenting this with "Alice's toy box".......... Smile


Oh. OH, OHHH....... This would be fantabulous.......

Until then, one could retrofit a H-bb's B-x as one, but it's a tad small.
guyactor
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BTW - Is the girls name Alice or Ash (as in Ashley). I have seen both, here.
Brynmore14
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None of the above, multiple names are for the purposes of obfuscation, earlier in the thread Rick states:

"I just want to note that the name Ash and Alice and the Hopkins University are for posting and webpage google protection.
Alice, Ash and Hopkins University are not the actual names on and in the book so feel free to refer to them as that."
Al Desmond
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On May 1, 2014, Doc Ben wrote:
Al, apparently you did not understand that I personally worked with the patient I mentioned, the twin diagnosed with Scizophrenia and MPD. I would not, nor could, not reveal her name, which I still remember, and I am not sure what link would satisfy you...but I am teling you of an actual, real case...not a link to some report. INMHO you will be able to create a very credible and convincing script and a performance of ASH despite your concern for such details. Smile


Where did I ask you to revel her name?

Rick said he knew of at least 200 cases of "rare" comorbid schizophrenic/D.I.D. I simply questioned that. I could not find any case studies on line (nor in my personal library).

I never asked you personally to revel anything.
Godzilla
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Rick, be sure to send out ASH to the people who ordered first ! Smile
So, that we can enjoy and have our OWN take on it !
Prefer that, to learning about it on this thread !

Looking forward to this !

Gary
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
Brynmore14
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Yeah, I'll second what the G-man said.
Sicnatius
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Totally agree with the lizard!
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13 AGREES with Godzilla !
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