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Neal Roter
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Profile of Neal Roter
Words of wisdom, Paul...
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Inner circle
Portland, OR
3545 Posts

Profile of Turk
On 2003-12-31 03:18, 7th_Son wrote:
I wonder how public and private libraries get away with loaning copyrighted material?

I mean, they could buy any magic book that's available to the public, and offer it on loan.

Just a thought.

Although I don't know for certain, since all (most?) libraries do this, I would assume that the law has a specific exemption written into it for libraries. Libraries can't afford to get sued, so I'm fairly confident that they are not doing anything least for them. (Possibly comes under a public "fair use" exception.)

Further "proof"? When it comes to audio books, tapes and CDs at least, libraries are sold special editions (usually the same tapes and CDs but heavier duty packaging which holds the material). And I think that a lot of books also come in "library editions", so I assume library "loaning" of such materials is legal.

Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
John LeBlanc
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Profile of John LeBlanc
On 2004-01-25 05:37, Turk wrote:
Although I don't know for certain, since all (most?) libraries do this, I would assume that the law has a specific exemption written into it for libraries.

There's no need to assume. On December 31, 2003, in this very thread, I posted a link to the actual Code that lays out Copyright Law:

This reminds me of a Mark Twain quote in reference to classic books: "...a book which people praise and don't read."

It's amazing what libraries can loan out. There's a library that has a copy of Stunners! available for loan. That's a stunner.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Escamoteurettes, my blog.

"One thought fills immensity." -- William Blake
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Profile of chappy
If still there remains any confusion as to the answer to the original post, please re-read the above posts until it becomes clear. YES, it is stealing, so please don't do it.
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
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Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Getting to a core issue of our craft...

The 'secrets' are personal findings and usually not so useful to most other magicians.

For example: It is now 21 years after I put some things into a couple of private manuscripts. The edge grip work has become timely thanks to Kainoa Harbottle's enthusiasm for the subject. The card stuff found its time recently, too. And that little coins across I built back in the late S is now somewhat popular.

That's a twenty-five year lead/lag time on material. What good does it do to spend a small fortune to put such things into a market where they will sit for a generation before anyone else uses it?

I can only offer you my answers...

0) Read material to find what 'speaks' to you.
1) Find the primary sources for material.
2) Discuss material with those who perform it.
3) Get ready to seek out some of those sources who don't live nearby.

And of course LISTEN TO YOUR AUDIENCES. all the coins I've dropped here
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Profile of NJJ
We can argue about ethics and moral until we are blue in the face, and no one will agree on the ethical course of action.

However, LEGALLY it is against the laws of most countries to copy another person's book and sell it.

I know that in Australia you can photocopy up to 10% of a book and redistribute it as you please. (Many universities create textbooks made up of different chapters of different books to create a set text for a course, which they then sell to the students.)
Rob Johnston
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Profile of Rob Johnston
Keep in mind that A LOT of people make money on Ebay selling tricks that they did not invent or develop. I feel this is the same type of thing that we are discussing here.

It is to be a secret art, and I rue the day that mainstream magic stores (that will be unnamed) made magic somewhat popular and secrets were exposed.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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Profile of Christian
>Keep in mind that A LOT of people make money on Ebay >selling tricks that they did not invent or develop. I >feel this is the same type of thing that we are >discussing here.

Well, yes and no...

Morally, the issue is very similar, i.e., taking another one's ideas and duplicating it.

Legally, however, there is a difference. Copyright does not apply to the idea but to the form the idea comes in. This is the reason why people who take a clever idea of another one and sell it with their own instructions might not infringe the copyright while others copying books, do so.
If I rewrote the plot of a Stephen King novel in my own words, I would not be liable for copyright infringement.

To protect original tricks, it is sometimes possible to patent a device if it fulfills the requirements of patentability. Then, the idea itself is protected and not only the form it comes in.

I know that this difference may be hard to grasp for those of you who do not happen to be intellectual property attorneys.

For those of you who did not read the copyright act via the link provided, I might add that copyright expires (generally 70 years after the author's death, but there are exceptions).

Obviously, different countries have different copyright laws, but international treaties (such as the Berne Convention or TRIPS) ensure a certain minimal protection.

Take care.

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Profile of braddevant
It's stealing! I am a book collector and every time a rare book gets copied illegally the value of the original decreases. A book's value is tied directly to it's difficulty to obtain. If you want a book that is out of print, search for it at collectable book vendors like the rest of us who obtain them honorably.
You will pay more for them, but magic will be better for it.
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Profile of matthu
And now I'll probably stir up a hornet's nest...

Do we think there may be a case made for copying your OWN media from one format to another e.g. VHS to DVD because VHS is going to become obsolete?

I feel that with the rapid change in technology, people are expected to replace all of their tapes etc. far sooner than they might ordinarily be expected to wear out. When you purchase an item, you might expect to be able to enjoy revisiting that item (in much the same way as you might re-read a book) without having to keep specific old technology available to do so.

What do others think?
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Profile of Christian
I do not know all of the world's intellectual property law, but in most jurisdictions it is legal to make a private copy of legally obtained video tapes. The same is true for converting VSH into DVD standard as long as you bought the video legally in the first place. However, you can not sell the VHS and keep the DVD as a copy is only allowed for backup.

I hope I shed some light upon the issue.

Best regards
Mark Timon
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Profile of Mark Timon
Hi Jerry

Of course you can make a copy for your personal use, as long as you don't try to sell it.
It happens everyday, for example if I buy an original music cd, and want to listen it in my car but also at home, I'd make a copy.
I don't try to sell it and I'm sure that no one could jail you for that.

Greg Owen
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Profile of Greg Owen
The original post was about copying...which may be covered by the copyright law. Keep in mind this in an international community, so U.S. law is NOT the law of the planet (oh dear, I hear a political debate coming on...).

Be that as it may, and there are international agreements against copying also, but what about the loan of material without copying? A few posts back, the question was asked about libraries...and certainly magic clubs have lending libraries...

- Greg Owen
Author of The Alpha Stack ebook - the balanced memorized stack
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