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Magnus Eisengrim
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I'd like to make a nice leather cone for the Vernon routine. He used (IIRD) a 2 1/8" billiard ball, and I'll be somewhere around there.

1. How think do you think the leather should be?
2. What should the inside texture of the cone be?
3. What's the best way to cut a circle out of leather?

Thanks for any ideas or suggestions you might have.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Ray Tupper.
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I think the best way to construct this, would be to use a thin leather, probably sheep, over a firm cardboard base.
Glue the leather to the cardboard with a contact adhesive. The rubber base of the glue would keep the leather
and cardboard malleable.
The best way to cut thin leather, is with scissors/shears. A knife pulls the leather. That's the way I cut all my leather
skivers.
Doing it this way, you could line the inside of the cone with any material you fancy. You're just making up a 3 ply circle.
i.e. Lining, stiff card, leather. It would be easy to do the join as well, once the cone has been formed.
Cheers, Ray.
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InventorRu
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I think Ray Tupper is exactly right but I would prefer to cut it out using what we call in the UK a 'compass cutter' which is like a pair of compasses which holds a knife.I think by using a sharp fresh blade and making several passes you'll get a cleaner,crisper edge than by using scissors.

Rufus
Magnus Eisengrim
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Thank you Ray and Rufus. It'll be a few weeks before I can start, but I'm looking forward to the project.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Mr. Woolery
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I made one a few weeks ago, just using 8oz tooling leather. I made the pattern out of stiff paper by trial and error, measuring with the ball I wanted to use. I'm using balls from a multiplying billiard ball set. The seam I stitched up with a baseball stitch. It was a fairly quick project.

Most of my leather working projects are knife sheaths, so I just used what I had around the house anyway.

-Patrick
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2014-01-30 20:11, Mr. Woolery wrote:
I made one a few weeks ago, just using 8oz tooling leather. I made the pattern out of stiff paper by trial and error, measuring with the ball I wanted to use. I'm using balls from a multiplying billiard ball set. The seam I stitched up with a baseball stitch. It was a fairly quick project.

Most of my leather working projects are knife sheaths, so I just used what I had around the house anyway.

-Patrick


Thank you. I'll have to handle some 8oz tooling leather to see what it feels like.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Darkwing
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Ok guys, I guess I need to chime in on this one. I was interested in in doing the Vernon Ball and Cone routine after seeing Aldo Columbini do his version in a lecture. I bought the DVD and the balls and cone from Aldo but found I could not do a couple of moves in the routine because the cone I got in the set was plastic and not leather. At that time family finances would not allow me to afford the leather cone from some dealers. I tried to make one myself from a piece of leather but it was too flimsy and would not stay together. I got on the Magic Café and with the help of guys like Levent, J Neal, and Richard Hughes, I took the plastic cone used it to make a pattern so I could make a cone out of layered brown kraft paper pasted together with a wrinkle free paste called "Yes Paste" found in Michaels. I used the plastic cone as a mold to hold the pasted kraft paper in place so the cone would hold it's shaped until it dried and put around 5 -7 layers of kraft paper to make the cone. I then took the pattern to cut the leather and glued it to the paper cone shape. The cone is stiff but has enough give to hold the ball in place when you squeeze the cone with out crushing the cone. It works great. If you need additional help or info on the construction of the cone, please let me know.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Nice idea, Darkwing. Thanks.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MRSharpe
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I'm a leather worker as well as a magician. Leather thickness is measured in oz. 1 oz= 1/64", so 8 oz--mentioned by Mr. Woolery--is 1/8" thick and is about right for this prop based on others I have seen. The pattern would best be made out of regular poster board. It's cheap enough and using it is a lot less hassle than laminating layers of brown craft paper together. You can get close on your pattern by making a full scale drawing of the ball you intend to use with a cone drawn tangent to the edges of that ball. Since this is a 2D mock up the ball would be a simple circle with an outside diameter of the ball you intend to use. In other words, if you have a 1" diameter billiard ball, start with a 1" diameter circle drawn on a baseline--representing the table top--at the bottom of the paper. Construct( draw) a line through the center of the circle which is perpendicular to the baseline Finally, draw two lines which represent the edges of the cone you wish to make from a distance which works for you, down to the baseline. Now, if you measure the length of those last two lines--you really only need to measure the length of one since they should be the same length--this will be the diameter of the circle you need to cut out of the leather. Since the cone is based on only part of the circle, you can figure out what the angle that will be cut out of the circle is to make the cone using some simple math. measure between the two lines that represent the edges of the cone at the base line. This distance will be the diameter of that cone. Use the formula for calculating the circumference of a circle based on it's radius (C= 2πr) and record that dimension. Do the same with the length of the side of your cone from the sketch. Now you have two circumference dimensions. If you divide the smaller by the larger this will give you a percentage in decimal form. Multiply 360° by this percentage and you will have the angular measurement of the partial circle which will be your pattern. This is much easier to do than it is to explain BTW. I also have a lot of experience creating patterns using geometry, so that's a factor. You can, of course, do all this by trial and error, but you will actually save a lot of trial time by doing the math first. Once you have your pattern, you should lay it out on the flesh side of the leather so that it will be the inside of your finished cone. If you lay it out on the grain side and sew it up so that the grain side is out then your finished cone will be about 1/4" too small. A baseball stitch or a whip stitch should work for sewing up the seam. Punching the holes for either is best done with a tool called a thonging chisel which can usually be found at Hobby Lobby, Michael's or at a leather store such as Tandy's or Hidecrafters, both out of Texas. If you don't have a Tandy's store near you their website or Hidecrafter's are both great to do business with and they are happy to provide information over the phone toll free. If the pattern drafting process isn't clear PM me and we can work out a way so I can help you get the pattern right. The key to any leather work is having a working pattern from the start.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
Darkwing
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MR Sharpe,

Great advice. I'd wished you had been around when I was trying to weigh my options. Unfortunately, I did not have access to the leather working tools and expertise you have. I had to make do with what I had and it worked.
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Good to hear you were able to get a prop that works for you. I used to work at Hollywood Magic, Costa Mesa. We sold several different ball and cone sets, but I never tried learning the routine. Also, I thought it was in the first Stars of magic collection, but it isn't. After I wrote my comment I tried to find the routine in my library, but can't remember what I've seen it in before. Can you recommend some sources for the routine/working?
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2014-02-09 11:23, MRSharpe wrote:
Good to hear you were able to get a prop that works for you. I used to work at Hollywood Magic, Costa Mesa. We sold several different ball and cone sets, but I never tried learning the routine. Also, I thought it was in the first Stars of magic collection, but it isn't. After I wrote my comment I tried to find the routine in my library, but can't remember what I've seen it in before. Can you recommend some sources for the routine/working?


A basic routine is in the Dai Vernon Book of Magic. Apparently it is a set of moves based on Vernon's own routine, but isn't his exact routine. I have been told that Vernon had a more complete routine in lecture notes, but I've never seen it.

Aldo Colombini marketed a similar routine called Cone-tact; I don't know if it's still available.

Thanks for your insight into the leatherwork.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
rickmagic1
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Ok, so maybe I could use some help. I had some craft leather and was thinking about making a smaller cone for the Leipzig coin routine. Any thoughts of the best way to make a pattern? Also, because the leather is so soft, I am thinking about making it double-thickness.
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Michael Baker
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Quote:
On Mar 8, 2014, rickmagic1 wrote:
Ok, so maybe I could use some help. I had some craft leather and was thinking about making a smaller cone for the Leipzig coin routine. Any thoughts of the best way to make a pattern? Also, because the leather is so soft, I am thinking about making it double-thickness.


Like any pattern for other fabrics, make it from paper. You can then transfer that to something more substantial later, if you need to.

I'd begin with a solid cone the size needed. Lay it on a piece of paper, lining up its length with the edge of the paper. Mark the top and bottom with a pencil. Then slowly roll the cone without lifting it and marking the top and bottom at regular intervals as you go. Complete a little more than one revolution of the cone (a pencil mark on the cone will let you know when you have done that), and then connect the dots. Cut out that pattern and form it around the cone to see if you end up with something that works. If not, adjust it or try again. If it seems good, use it as a pattern for the leather.

If you make it double thickness, offset them so you have a little overhang, outer layer at one edge, inner layer at the other. This way you can overlap those edges for a perfectly flush seam.
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Bill Hegbli
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I met an retired engineer at the local restaurant hang out. I gave him the figures from the Dai Vernon book. He figured it out mathematically and made a paper cone the exact size I needed.

Of you are not a math expert, then simply make some circles with a large Compass. Cut the radius and form your cone until it is the size you want.

Another way is to simply purchase craft paper mache cones and use that as a template.

I have ordered them from this website, good serve, timely delivery.
http://www.thecraftshoppe.com/papermache.html Scroll down the page referenced to all the different type of paper cones.
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Michael Baker
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I have a knack for doing everything the hard way! Smile
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Ok I have my leather and I've made a mock-up. At 6" tall, the mock-up looks shorter than the cone in the pictures in the Dai Vernon book of magic. Anyone have experience with this? The 3" mouth seems right, and the top can be between 1/2" to 1" and seems ok, but I'm uncertain about the height.

Or does it matter?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Tree
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I used this Cone Calculator to make my cone for Al Schneider's Cone and Coin routine.

http://www.wegmuller.org/cones/
MagicSensei
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Wiggle. Excellent calculator. Thanks for sharing this. What dimensions did you use for Schneider cone, if you will? I did diameter at 1.625 and 2.5 inch height.
Bill Hegbli
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Quote:
On Feb 10, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-09 11:23, MRSharpe wrote:
Good to hear you were able to get a prop that works for you. I used to work at Hollywood Magic, Costa Mesa. We sold several different ball and cone sets, but I never tried learning the routine. Also, I thought it was in the first Stars of magic collection, but it isn't. After I wrote my comment I tried to find the routine in my library, but can't remember what I've seen it in before. Can you recommend some sources for the routine/working?


A basic routine is in the Dai Vernon Book of Magic. Apparently it is a set of moves based on Vernon's own routine, but isn't his exact routine. I have been told that Vernon had a more complete routine in lecture notes, but I've never seen it.

Aldo Colombini marketed a similar routine called Cone-tact; I don't know if it's still available.

Thanks for your insight into the leatherwork.

John


I have the Vernon lecture notes from the 1940's with his Ball, Cone, and Handkerchief trick explained. It is only a one page description and a page of illustrations.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
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