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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Oh, woe is me, T' have seen what I have seen, see what I see! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Marlin1894
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On 2014-02-03 13:02, LobowolfXXX wrote:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=32



I remember that well. And Dylan is an Obama supporter. Obama is a Chrysler supporter and supporter of American union auto workers. So maybe this ad was a political statement! lol

The funny thing is if you are, or have ever been, a fan of Bob Dylan he's probably done something along the way that either ****ed you off or left you dismayed. I could run down a list of things he's done, said, written, or sung, that angered or disappointed some segment of his fan base. And yet, he keeps on keeping on. And if your a fan you tend to keep coming back to something of his that you like. Regardless. He's very hard to write off because he's so multi-faceted, like most people. He just doesn't seem as concerned as a lot of artists about expressing it.
rockwall
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On 2014-02-03 12:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, is the complaint that he's doing any ad, or an ad for Chrysler, or an ad for any corporation, or an ad for an American corporation, or what?


I'd like to know this too cause I'm having a hard time figuring it out.
Magnus Eisengrim
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One obvious argument is that by forming an economic relationship with a corporation (or government or...) an artist undermines himself as a social critic.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-03 13:52, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
One obvious argument is that by forming an economic relationship with a corporation (or government or...) an artist undermines himself as a social critic.


I'd call that an assertion, not an argument, and one that requires a huge assumption.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2014-02-03 14:00, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-03 13:52, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
One obvious argument is that by forming an economic relationship with a corporation (or government or...) an artist undermines himself as a social critic.


I'd call that an assertion, not an argument, and one that requires a huge assumption.


It's a one-sentence summary of the argument. Smile
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Slide
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"an artist undermines himself as a social critic."

That makes the assumption that artists need to be a social critic. When did that happen.

I think Dylan distanced himself from the "social critic" albatross 50 years ago.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2014-02-03 14:14, Slide wrote:
"an artist undermines himself as a social critic."

That makes the assumption that artists need to be a social critic. When did that happen.

I think Dylan distanced himself from the "social critic" albatross 50 years ago.


So if he isn't a social critic, why would anyone listen to his songs. He can't sing, he can't play the guitar, he can't play the harmonica. If not the content, what's Dylan got?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-03 14:05, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-03 14:00, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-03 13:52, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
One obvious argument is that by forming an economic relationship with a corporation (or government or...) an artist undermines himself as a social critic.


I'd call that an assertion, not an argument, and one that requires a huge assumption.


It's a one-sentence summary of the argument. Smile


That's fair enough, but e value of a social critic lies in the truth and relevance of the criticism. The argument seems like a sloppy ad hominem. I think anyone who actually made it would be undermining himself much more than Dylan did.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Slide
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First: he writes brilliant songs.
Second, he is a very good acoustic guitar player.
Third, I personally love the way he sings and always have.

But the main reason people listen to his songs is that the songs are well crafted, meaningful, songs. His is without peer as far as songwriting is concerned.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-03 14:16, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
So if he isn't a social critic, why would anyone listen to his songs. He can't sing, he can't play the guitar, he can't play the harmonica. If not the content, what's Dylan got?


You mean nowadays, or ever?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On 2014-02-03 14:26, Slide wrote:
First: he writes brilliant songs.
Second, he is a very good acoustic guitar player.
Third, I personally love the way he sings and always have.

But the main reason people listen to his songs is that the songs are well crafted, meaningful, songs. His is without peer as far as songwriting is concerned.


There's the rub. Does an artist like Dylan undermine his credibility as a meaningful songwriter with dubious alliances?

(Of course, one response might be to say that Chrysler is a wonderful Italian company that promotes all the values Dylan currently sings or will want to sing about. It might.)
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Slide
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" Does an artist like Dylan undermine his credibility as a meaningful songwriter with dubious alliances"

No.
Slide
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Some of my favorite songs have been about cars:

Rocket 88
Mercury Blues
Diamond in the Back
Mercedes Benz

Here is a bunch of other ones: http://voices.yahoo.com/top-20-songs-cars-12263940.html
Marlin1894
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On 2014-02-03 14:55, Slide wrote:
" Does an artist like Dylan undermine his credibility as a meaningful songwriter with dubious alliances"

No.


I wouldn't give an absolute "no". I'd just say watch the Chrysler commercial then listen to a few of his song that you consider meaningful and decide for yourself. Are "The Times They Are-A Changin", "Blowin In The Wind", or any of the other 4 or 5 hundred songs he's written meaningless to you now? That's the answer. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to that question. Some might say it's all meaningless now, some would say otherwise.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2014-02-03 14:55, Slide wrote:
" Does an artist like Dylan undermine his credibility as a meaningful songwriter with dubious alliances"

No.


+1

The songs are the songs; they're what define his worth (or lack thereof) as a songwriter. Anyone who needs to know about his business dealings to evaluate his songwriting ability isn't a music critic, but a social critic in a musical critic's clothing.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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Seems Dylan sold his image well to generate so much offense when he chooses to sell something else.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
landmark
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Look, I would think it's self-evident, but I guess not.
There's art and there's commercialism.
I missed the Victoria's Secret thing and so on, so I guessed I've been spared of a few decades of Dylan's commercial crassness.
Next up: Pete Seeger for McRib Sandwiches. Finger-pluckin' good!

Lobo: Holden wouldn't approve.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2014-02-03 15:15, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-03 14:55, Slide wrote:
" Does an artist like Dylan undermine his credibility as a meaningful songwriter with dubious alliances"

No.


+1

The songs are the songs; they're what define his worth (or lack thereof) as a songwriter. Anyone who needs to know about his business dealings to evaluate his songwriting ability isn't a music critic, but a social critic in a musical critic's clothing.

Sheesh, can we build a better strawman than that please? No one said anything about his art.
Slide
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"There's art and there's commercialism."

How does the Andy Warhol fit into your view of art? Or any art since the early 60's.

Please tell me a single artist in the last 50 years who you consider pure?
landmark
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As an artist, Warhol made a good businessman.

Quote:
Please tell me a single artist in the last 50 years who you consider pure?

Pete ain't lickin' the special sauce off his fingers is he? But I'm not even asking for Pete's level of integrity. Just asking for some good taste at least in how you present yourself.
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