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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Oh, woe is me, T' have seen what I have seen, see what I see! (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bazinga
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Since Pete was a close personal friend of mine, I can't let certain bu11zhit go by.

#1: He did NOT do your see that - did NOT - try to cut the power cable because he didn't want Dylan going electric. He threatened to cut it BECAUSE THE SOUND MAN WOULDN'T LISTEN TO HIM EXPLAIN THAT DYLAN VOICE COULD NOT BE HEARD BECAUSE THE MUSIC WAS TOO DISTORTED!

#2: He just died. So cut the zh!t about him selling chicken.

SHOW SOME G0DD@M RESPECT!
Bazinga
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What a jealous bunch of butt-tards!

Dylan can write, sing, sell anything that belongs to him. If you guys are so friggin good. Do it yourself.
Slide
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No disrespect to Pete, Bazinga.
Bazinga
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Thank you Slide.
stoneunhinged
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"oitched"?
balducci
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Quote:
On 2014-02-03 21:28, landmark wrote:

Not just that. I actually don't have a problem with "Buy America." I do have a problem with a so-called Buy America ad when the profits really go to an Italian multi-national corporation. But really that wasn't quite it either. I think it was the whole Gestalt of selling authenticity using the brand of Bob Dylan. Maybe not everything has to be a commodity, including authenticity?

I forgot about the Italian-controlled part. Wonder what percentage of viewers remembered or even knew about the Italian factor. Heh.

Anyway, I watched the commercial and did not think too much of it one way or the other. I sort of thought it dragged on a bit. And at the end, I thought that U.S. craft beer makers had reason to be upset. Along with U.S. manufacturers (if any exist) of watches and cell phones.

Quote:
On 2014-02-04 01:48, stoneunhinged wrote:
"oitched"?

"pitched", I imagine Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2014-02-03 22:26, arthur stead wrote:
I don't think you understand how advertising works. Bob Dylan didn't go to Chrysler and say, "Hey guys, I really believe in your product. I'd like to do a commercial for you." No. The advertising campaign for a product like Chrysler starts with their PR people inviting several of the top advertising agencies to compete for the privilege of handling their account. Each advertising company's creative heads meet with Chrysler reps, to determine what they want to get across to their target audience. Also, a budget is discussed.

Once they know the logistics, each advertising agency gives the assignment to several of their "creative teams." These small groups of two to three people try to draft unique and original approaches to selling the product. This involves extensive research, including poll-taking and intensive focus groups. All these concepts are presented to the head of the ad agency. He or she will pick only one of these ideas to pitch to Chrysler. (All the other creative teams lose out).

So in this case, one of the creative teams at the ad agency proposed the idea of getting Bob Dylan to appear and sing in a commercial with strong "American pride" overtones. The head of the ad agency approved that idea, and selected it as the one to pitch to Chrysler. Dylan's management would have been contacted to see if he would accept. Dylan's accountants and attorneys would have negotiated a fee. To sweeten the pot, the ad agency probably agreed to incorporate one of Dylan's compositions (so he would also benefit from song royalties).

Once they know Dylan is on board, everyone at the ad agency gets involved, helping to expand on the idea and create a fabulous presentation. Finally, they present it to the Chrysler folks, hoping that their concept will win the account. (Remember, all the other top agencies will also be presenting their chosen concept). Chrysler will ultimately choose only one idea and discard the rest. So even though they've all put in a tremendous amount of work, in the end only one ad agency will reap the benefits. There is usually no guarantee who will win the account (Although as in all situations where big money is involved, politics and underhandedness do sometimes play a part).

As we now know, the Chrysler folks picked the Dylan idea. The next step for the ad agency would have been to hire all the right people to create the commercial. From film director to cinematographer to art director to make-up artist to camera crew and everything else that it entails. None of these decisions, including the post-production editing, would have involved Bob Dylan. For his part, all he had to do was to show up at the film studio, and follow the director's instructions for each shot.

Slide, I don't begrudge your idol the right to participate in a product commercial. But I seriously doubt if Dylan has ever even considered driving a Chrysler. The motive was money ... whether he needed it or not. His accountants and PR people convinced him that it was a good idea. And for him, it probably was. But for some of us, it tarnished his reputation.


The decision to appear was his.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
arthur stead
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Slide, I don't understand your indignation. Regarding Dylan being a "national treasure" is your personal opinion. But music is very subjective. Some people like rap. Others cannot stand it. Some music lovers like classical, or jazz, while others prefer country. Even the world's most popular artists do not appeal to everyone. For example, millions of folks adore Celine Dion. Others cannot stand the sound of her voice.

In your case, you love everything Dylan has ever done. Other folks may only like his early acoustic "protest song" stuff. Some were converted during the electric days, or during the Rolling Thunder period. Some fervent fans were turned off when he released his "Christian" album. And (Heaven forbid) some people dismiss Dylan's contribution to American music entirely. They do not think of him as a visionary, and they do not appreciate his music.

Whatever the case, everyone has a right to their own opinion. And not everyone believes that Dylan is a "national treasure." Mr. Zimmerman himself quoted Abraham Lincoln in one of his songs: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
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landmark
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Quote:
On 2014-02-04 00:22, Bazinga wrote:
Since Pete was a close personal friend of mine, I can't let certain bu11zhit go by.

#1: He did NOT do your see that - did NOT - try to cut the power cable because he didn't want Dylan going electric. He threatened to cut it BECAUSE THE SOUND MAN WOULDN'T LISTEN TO HIM EXPLAIN THAT DYLAN VOICE COULD NOT BE HEARD BECAUSE THE MUSIC WAS TOO DISTORTED!



Quote:
Pete has long repudiated the contention that he axed Dylan's mic. Look up his interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now.






Quote:
#2: He just died. So cut the zh!t about him selling chicken.


Context matters. My whole point was that he would never do that kind of ad.
Quote:
Pete ain't lickin' the special sauce off his fingers is he? But I'm not even asking for Pete's level of integrity. Just asking for some good taste at least in how you present yourself.





Quote:
Dylan can write, sing, sell anything that belongs to him. If you guys are so friggin good. Do it yourself.


Quote:
Maybe not everything has to be a commodity, including authenticity?




Quote:
SHOW SOME G0DD@M RESPECT!


Quote:
Here's a song about American Pride. Written by someone who was never near a Super Bowl. More like a Dust Bowl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G60PfjeTh9Y
Slide
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Pitched yes.

Arthur, wow, we really really disagree. I'm sorry but there are national treasures that transcend whether you like the music or not: Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, and Bob Dylan. These people changed the shape of music completely so that nothing sounded the same after they were among us. I personally feel they deserve more respect.
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Anything that took my attention from that slug of a game deserves respect...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
landmark
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Quote:
On 2014-02-04 08:17, Slide wrote:
there are national treasures that transcend whether you like the music or not: Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, and Bob Dylan. These people changed the shape of music completely so that nothing sounded the same after they were among us. I personally feel they deserve more respect.

I agree with this.
Bazinga
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Landmark - and EVERYONE,

I sincerely apologize for my emotional outburst and for insulting all y'all. As you know, I'm sure, Pete's death has been quite a blow to me. And as I my own health problems have been going on for so long and I face mortality, I am not handling that well either.

I am sorry.

Bazinga!
landmark
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No problem, B.
I wish you the best and hope you keep on playing!
TomBoleware
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Hang in there Bazinga. People like you have earned the right to be a litle grouchy at times.
Sometimes you have to just spit it out before you can smile again.

Take a few sips of Geritol/Hapacol and shake it off. Smile

Stay well my friend.

Tom
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arthur stead
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Quote:
On 2014-02-04 08:17, Slide wrote:
Pitched yes.

Arthur, wow, we really really disagree. I'm sorry but there are national treasures that transcend whether you like the music or not: Louie Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, and Bob Dylan. These people changed the shape of music completely so that nothing sounded the same after they were among us. I personally feel they deserve more respect.



Slide, strange as it sounds, we DO agree. My idol, Duke Ellington is the reason I came to this country to study music. He, and the other artists on your list: Louie Armstrong, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, were absolute giants. Their musical contributions were immense.

I wouldn't put Dylan's work in the same category, but even there, you and DO I agree: Dylan's early songs were exceptional. His influence is beyond question. Who has ever topped Blowing In The Wind, The Times They Are A-Changin', Masters Of War and so many others?

Where we disagree is that ALL of Dylan's work should be considered a national treasure. And there's the rub. As I said before, music is very subjective. You think everything Dylan has ever done is sacred. But although I enjoyed his early stuff, after the Rolling Thunder album his output has fallen flat for me. (And actually, I saw him in concert with some other famous guest stars during the Rolling Thunder tour. Loved it! But after that, I lost interest).

You know, I love the Café because there's a lot to be learned from some really talented and generous people. In return, I have always tried to share valid and factual information. And I've always done that in a civil, polite way. By contrast, some of your reactions to me in this thread have been rude and aggressive. (Calling my comments fickle, hogwash, a believer in the tooth fairy, belittling my professional experience).

What's more, is that you don't seem to be open to debate. You just want enforce your views on everyone else. But that's OK, you are who you are, and I won't criticize you for it. I learnt a long time ago that one cannot reason with unreasonable people. So I will simply ignore your posts from now on. They don't merit a response.
Arthur Stead
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rockwall
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On 2014-02-03 18:12, rockwall wrote:
Well, that's not really what you said but if that's what you meant, ok.



Arthur, if this came across as rude, I apologize. I was just pointing out that you seemed to start with “ I just can't take him seriously when he's pitching a product.” to “What I'm saying is that he didn't come across as sincere.” which seemed like two different positions to me.

My personal opinion is that pitching a product doesn't make someone a sellout. Maybe you’re a sellout if you don’t believe anything you’re saying about it. It’s still a job.

As to whether he was believable in the ad. I don’t know. I suspect someone’s personal opinion on the product or the company will affect their perception of the believability of the spokesman. I’m somewhat neutral on the company or the car so I didn't have the same strong reaction that others did.
arthur stead
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Rockwall, I didn't think you were rude at all. And you are correct, those two statements I made were confusing. But I intended them to convey the same sentiment.
Arthur Stead
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Not wanting to derail, but Neil Young has made the news in Canada the past few months with extreme criticism of the Alberta provincial government, the federal government and the oil and gas industry. He has two main points.

1. Oil Sand exploration, extraction and shipping has been unreasonably destructive of the environment, and
2. The government has violated its Treaty obligations to First Nations peoples by allowing this rampant abuse.

Putting his money where his mouth is, Neil embarked on an "Honour the Treaties" tour, with proceeds from the Canadian dates going to a legal fund for Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation.

Whether he's right or not is a topic for a different thread.

The relevant point here is that he couldn't have any credibility if he was simultaneously spokesman for commercial interests. Can you imagine "General Motors presents Neil Young's Honour the Treaties Tour"--THAT would be truly ridiculous.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Slide
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Arthur,

Actually I thought our conversation was fairly civil. I'm at a loss to understand how I belittled you in anyway. But if you felt I did, I apologize. Certainly nothing was intended.

The fickle remark was a comment on your statement that Dylan's commercial tarnished your opinion of Dylan. For me it is like saying Picasso's work is tarnished because he appeared on What's My Line. (Not that he was ever on What's my line).

and no where did I say that everything Dylan did was sacred.

But the sheer volume of great work, and some of his later work such as Time Out of Mind are some of the best he has done, is unmatched.

Perhaps it is an American thing.
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