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landmark
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Well this is kind of interesting.

I agree of course with Magnus, balducci, S2000, and Lobowolf--that this is not a math question, but a semantics question.

Most mathematicians I guess would instinctively assume that twice the size of a two dimensional figure means twice the area. Evidently though, in the printing trade twice the size means twice the length of each dimension.

Just for fun I set my printer to 200% and copied a 1-inch square Post-it note. I got a 2-inch square Post-it note. As a math guy, I have to admit that surprised me. I would have thought I would get double the area, not four times the area.

To get (approximately) double the area then, I would need to set the enlargement to 141%; in order to get (approximately) triple the area, set the enlargement to 173%. Similarly, to get the respective side lengths multiply by 1.41 and 1.73, the approximate square roots of 2 and 3 respectively.

So now Jack Straw, you know what math nerds think, and now we know what printers think, and you and your friend can fight it out however you like.
Jack Straw
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OK, Landmark.

I wanted to hear from you.

I work with 3 other people here in the graphics department, and I mentioned to them what was going on here.

All 3 of them are quite amused, and not at me.

I've been working in graphics for quite a long time, so this is second nature to me.

Four times the size of 3 1/2 x 2 1/2 = 14 x 10.

But I also ain't no slouch when it comes to math, so a 400% enlargement has always been a matter of enlarging both dimensions to 400% to me.

But I'm not a math nerd.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Jack Straw
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But to me it's still a question of size vs. area. Are they the same thing?

Not to me.

Never has been, and never will be.

Sorry guys.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
LobowolfXXX
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I think the moral of the story is that printers recognize and allow for the fact that most people are fairly math-illiterate.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jack Straw
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Like I said, I work in a print shop in the graphics department.

If you came into my place of employment and told my boss that you wanted playing cards that were 4 times the normal size, you would get cards that were 14" x 10".

And then when you were all upset about how large they turned out to be, you would have to pay all expenses to get them re-done to 7" x 5", which is twice the size.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 13:40, Jack Straw wrote:
But to me it's still a question of size vs. area. Are they the same thing?

Not to me.

Never has been, and never will be.

Sorry guys.


If you own real property, do you know your lot size? Betcha it's given in square feet (i.e. area). "Size" isn't always "area." Just when you're talking about something two-dimensional.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 13:44, Jack Straw wrote:

Like I said, I work in a print shop in the graphics department.

I'm starting to picture customer service like something out of Seinfeld ... "No playing cards four times the size for you!"
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Jack Straw
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Well, no balducci. We'll do anything you want, at $100 an hour computer time.

Every correction and problem costs money. Nothing comes for free.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 13:44, Jack Straw wrote:
Like I said, I work in a print shop in the graphics department.

If you came into my place of employment and told my boss that you wanted playing cards that were 4 times the normal size, you would get cards that were 14" x 10".

And then when you were all upset about how large they turned out to be, you would have to pay all expenses to get them re-done to 7" x 5", which is twice the size.


Sounds like a great business model. God forbid you ask a 5-second question to make sure you get it right the first time. I'm guessing you don't get a lot of repeat business from people who understand math. I'd probably pay you, but if I were bored, I might just let you sue me. I think I'd have a decent chance in small claims court.

Then I'd post about it on the Magic Café, and ask people if they thought it was you who is mathematically illiterate, or if you're just catering to customers who are mathematically illiterate.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 13:58, Jack Straw wrote:
Well, no balducci. We'll do anything you want, at $100 an hour computer time.

Every correction and problem costs money. Nothing comes for free.

So it pays well for you to misunderstand what the customers actually want. Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Jack Straw
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We would offer any kind of help that you need, lobowolf, at no charge. Of course, there is a limit as to how far we'll go. Can't waste all day teaching you what to do. Time is money.

What is that magic saying? I forget, but it's something like "Once is a trick. Twice is a lesson. I charge for lessons".

But we do not usually deal with people off the street. We deal with other professionals, both individuals and companies.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Jack Straw
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And by the way, it would be easier to tell us that you wanted cards that measured 7" x 5", instead of telling us that you want them 4 times the size. There is no ambiguity there.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
LobowolfXXX
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Is a 40' by 60' twice the size of one that is 20' by 30'?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jack Straw
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 14:10, Jack Straw wrote:
We would offer any kind of help that you need, lobowolf, at no charge. Of course, there is a limit as to how far we'll go. Can't waste all day teaching you what to do. Time is money.

What is that magic saying? I forget, but it's something like "Once is a trick. Twice is a lesson. I charge for lessons".

But we do not usually deal with people off the street. We deal with other professionals, both individuals and companies.


We are not a Kinko's copy shop.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 14:11, Jack Straw wrote:
And by the way, it would be easier to tell us that you wanted cards that measured 7" x 5", instead of telling us that you want them 4 times the size. There is no ambiguity there.


Strongly, strongly agree!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jack Straw
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And by the way, if we screw something up, the entire job is re-done at absolutely no charge to the customer.

Should we do something over for free if the customer screws up?

I say no.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 13:44, Jack Straw wrote:

If you came into my place of employment and told my boss that you wanted playing cards that were 4 times the normal size, you would get cards that were 14" x 10".

And then when you were all upset about how large they turned out to be, you would have to pay all expenses to get them re-done to 7" x 5", which is twice the size.


Doesn't the customer see/sign off on a proof showing the final dimensions before you put it into production? Seems like it would be a fairly easy catch.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 14:21, Jack Straw wrote:
And by the way, if we screw something up, the entire job is re-done at absolutely no charge to the customer.

Should we do something over for free if the customer screws up?

I say no.


I'd say if a customer asks a question that you know perfectly well is ambiguous and you make no effort to clarify it, you've screwed something up.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jack Straw
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Sometimes, but not always. We do a lot of financial printing, and there are extremely tight deadlines. I was told there were fines of $10,000 a day for these things being late.

Proofs also cost money (there it is again- money) when there is no deadline, so not every job gets a proof.

But, for the most part you are correct.

Digital files are usually supplied to us, and if the customer feels that his files are OK, they elect not to see a proof.

If any of you here saw some of the "Real Secrets" threads here, one of the complaints was about the numerous mis-spellings in the things that they were producing. Maybe that was because the person in charge of looking at proofs could not spell themselves.

Of course, there is always spell-check.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Jack Straw
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Quote:
On 2014-02-06 14:23, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-02-06 14:21, Jack Straw wrote:
And by the way, if we screw something up, the entire job is re-done at absolutely no charge to the customer.

Should we do something over for free if the customer screws up?

I say no.


I'd say if a customer asks a question that you know perfectly well is ambiguous and you make no effort to clarify it, you've screwed something up.


Telling us that you want something 4 times the size is not ambiguous.

Most of the stuff we do is from supplied files. We have nothing to do with the content or spelling.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
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