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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
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On 2014-02-14 14:16, quicknotist wrote: If that were true then their would be lots of political correctness hypnotists making a mint. And that's not the case. In fact the only two real hypnotists still packing out theatres in the UK do the kind of material you claim is the reason for the demise. Powers and Webster. And part of the reason they are still going is because of the venues they have locked into. One of the reasons stage hypnosis will never come back as big is because of the relentless crappy small thinking small time hypnotists who sell cheap products and courses and spill unprofessional operators into the market. Its the same reason Mentalism is suffering too because of the number of "dealers" selling as much effects as possible that is lead to the Trivialization of mentalism as Bob Cassiday would say. Which I agree with 100% Its also damages the perception and image and value of hypnosis and mentalism. Street hypnosis is the worst thing to ever happen to the art. It happens in every market when it becomes over exposed and full of too many operators trying to work for next to nothing. Its no different here. The biggest problem both hypnosis and mentalism face is the internet and the never ending selling of "secrets". Which this forum is a small part of. Yes there is a political correctness about created by the media but its not the mood of the majority of the general public. I personally don't like Jim Davidson but he has been crucified by the media. However the first chance the public get to vote for him on Big Brother and he wins by a HUGE majority. In fact its the biggest landslide in the history of the programme. That speaks volumes people can vote without fear of being labelled by the pc brigade. And then you get the real mood of whats going on. There are good and bad performers that do all kinds of material. but I would suggest that you guys would be better spending your time focusing on your own shows and developing your own material. But to be honest mentalism just like hypnosis at least here in the uk is starting too look very tired and the same. Its quickly becoming boring and so "yesterday". It's lost its gloss. That's the real problems you are facing. So if you want to move forward you need to reinvent yourself and find new markets. Or become part of the ever growing "professionals" who work for peanuts. And that's if they are lucky. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
So we shouldn't even talk about it?
I don't agree... discussing it amongst ourselves raises a little awareness, you get lots of viewpoints and maybe sometimes an argument too... lack of originality will always be around, I think personally there are far more hobbyist magic and mentalism purchasers than there have ever been... that drives the urgency to consume more and more stuff...always the latest and greatest of releases, old work, old books...now forgotten...there is quite a high percentage of purchasers who just want to buy something, learn the secret, maybe show it to a few friends and move on... that's the way it is...that won't change any time soon I think...and a hobby is a hobby...hobbies sometimes turn into passions afterall... and everything peaks and troughs, we've gone through the derren phase - there was a shift to a deeper more esoteric phase which has softly died down - now everyone is either looking for direction, finding their own path or are just doing their own thing, and have always done so...i don't think that will ever change... I think the more novelty "joke" items that get released - the more likely it will educate people who just want to perform down the pub or just to a couple of mates, that its always going to be good joke, because their mates will no doubt laugh at it... so they'll buy the next one, rinse and repeat... then maybe when they try performing for strangers and pull out the same stuff - suddenly, there is a shift... there's the wider issue of being painted by the same broad brush stroke - say to someone "magician" they will go on hearsay or their own experience... as for the rohypnol pill bottle, that's a step too far in my own personal experience...there's plenty of room for byplay and appropriate jokes for appropriate audiences - I don't think we need the rohypnol prop to be readily available, nor labelled as a "novelty/prop gag"...
I've asked to be banned
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Sure you can talk about it but its not going to change anything. The rohypnol pill bottle is a byproduct of the trivialization and over exposure of mentalism its basic market forces at play. That will happen in any market once it reaches a certain level of saturation.
Its not something I think would add to the effect of mentalism. So its not really mentalism its the result of secrets being to easy and widely available. mentalism is not meant to be funny its meant to be powerful. Yes a mentalist can be funny with his patter but the actual effects are meant to blur reality and create a real impact and hit on a deeper level. Yes it sounds like a piece of crap but it can't be avoided if the internet continuously pumps out products and "secrets" its inevitable. Its not the individual events you talk about that is killing the art its the medium by which makes it so easy to sell or find effects... I remember when I started performing mentalism professionally. Infact I only ever performed it for money as part of my hypnosis show. It was so difficult to find information and it cost a fortune back then trial and error finding the right material that it was treated with respect. There was a respect back then for keeping secrets and because of that they were highly valued. Nowadays that has almost gone. Here is another example only a few weeks ago someone who trained to be a "stage hypnotist" and has never done a show ran a course that had 15 people on it teaching satage hypnosis! And he hasn't done a single professional show! But he made a nice sum of money and now 15 more crap excuses for "hypnotists"are released into the world... This constant raping of the art mentalism or hypnosis is the real problem. Unfortunately its not going to go away so long as its easy to make a fast buck. I have been totally broke for long periods but I never gave in to teach stage hypnosis. Because it sucks..I would rather be broke |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To turn it on its head though, if you DID do a training course, and made sure it was everything that some others aren't...you could do a positive thing, make a change, educate people...you could even sell "misinformation packs" listing all the stuff that gets badly taught by people who don't have a clue...
just because something negative is happening, doesn't mean you jack it in, or say "well, that's just the way of the world" - well, you can...but then maybe you're even adding to the problem in a way, because you could do something about it, but don't... I'm only semi-joking... be paid for your knowledge, educate, do a bit of good, feel satisfied that you've done a good job...every one is a winner...
I've asked to be banned
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Political correctness is the death of art.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I am being paid for my knowledge I am working with professional football teams just now. I am also creating persuasion programmes for engineers that have to sell highly complex technical systems. I am also creating a similar programme for the financial industry all using hypnosis. I have in the past worked with champion athletes and pro golfers all using my own developments with hypnosis.
I also work with top CEO's and soon hopefully politician's. I am in talks with "yes" ambassadors to train their volunteers to knock on doors to sway the yes vote for scottish independance. Not doing it out of love I will charge a fee. These types of projects I find a lot more useful and I have created a seminar type show that uses some mentalism to get them on board in the first place. I don't think stage hypnosis needs me as a trainer there is far too much available already and it has killed the market. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On 2014-02-14 18:04, gabelson wrote: in many ways, I agree with you... however, there's a big difference between swearing for shock value (if that still works these days) vs having something poignant or meaningful to say and you happen to swear during the course of it...probably not explaining myself properly though... I guess I mean that doug stanhope would still be very, very funny if he never swore...there...that sums it up for me!
I've asked to be banned
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
How fortunate for you.
Quote:
On 2014-02-14 15:56, mindpunisher wrote: |
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
Stewart Lee on Political Correctness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IYx4Bc6_eE |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
That's a very extreme view on political correctness Reg. And there are many links and points of view to balance that out but I am not even going to go there. When we get to a situation where we can't use the word "blackboard" but can use "whiteboard" or not able to use the word "xmas" in our out door decorations because it supposedly offends someone then political correctness has gone mad. Political correctness has also created a lot of unfairness and a "card" that can and is being abused in ways that are harmful. It has gone extreme and it is being used to a degree now that is as bad as the original intentions behind it.
But that's not really the issue you claim no one likes certain types of shows anymore. And you blame that for the lack of interest in shows these days when in actual fact its just not true. You mentioned something about people talking in chinese used by a lot of hypnotists even today. A coule of weeks ago I watch Al Murray go through a whole range of accents but really picking on the scottish accent. is that racist? Personally I found it hilarious. If it is deemed politically incorrect and Al Murray gets kicked of the tv because of it does that make me racist because I still find its funny? It also happens to be my native accent. But that is NOT the reason hypnosis shows have gone out of favour. Because if that was the case then all comedians would have gone out of favour going by your logic. The real reason is that both mentalism and hypnosis have an inbuilt fascination from the general public "the mystery of the mind". Its the same inbuilt fascination that allows you and others selling courses teaching it so easily online. Same with mentalism. However that mystery and fascination dies as we see more operators or more people become "in the know"...or it gets over exposed. That's the reason that mentalism and hypnosis has suffered its lost or losing its gloss its mystery and there fore the fascination. put simply its just becoming old hat and boring, trivialized as Bob Cassiday would say. It amuses me the number of mentalists that have gone for covering themselves in tattoos recently in order to create a "character". Now we are seeing every man and his dog getting them. And what was once a bit dangerous and "out" there is fastly becoming naff. Give it five or ten years and that look will be Soooo dated!But they will be stuck with it.... The thing about the original post and the notion of "Class". Real class in an act is not just about the material its about being unique standing out. And that is increasingly becoming more difficult because of the evergrowing number of sheep copying and cloning their idols. It's also why I am moving in completely different directions and applications that will be VERY difficult to follow. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
One last comment on political correctness its really is worth noting again the fact that Jim Davidson was run off TV after being deemed homophobic on one reality show. He was kicked off by the powers that be. yet when in Big brother where the public get a chance to have their say he gets more than 50% of ALL the votes and won it by a HUGE landslide the biggest by far in the whole of the shows history. Keep in mind that programme also has a younger demographic and are supposedly more up to date. Perhaps that is a real indication of the real views of the public. He also still fills up theatres around the country so that really kills any theory about political correctness being the reason for the lack of interest in hypnosis shows.
Hypnosis stareted to die when courses and books became available and the market became over saturated by less than average hypnotists. Reg what you are doing now is far more damaging to the long-term future of stage hypnosis than anything related to a type of material. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Taste ≠ Political Correctness.
Taste is an aesthetic consideration based on proportion and amplitude with reference to the artist's material and her audience. The rest is a red herring.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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robwar0100 Inner circle Buy me some newspapers.Purchase for me 1 Gazette and 1747 Posts |
Whenever I perform, I never embarrass anyone. I treat everyone with respect. We have fun, and I have a quick wit, but it is always clean.
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<BR>I was writing a story for The Linking Ring a few years ago (can't remember if it was for magazine or magician.org website, and I was speaking with Peter Reveen. He talked about how it was important to not have a blue show. If there was a young man taking out a young lady for a first date, the magician would not want to spoil that occasion. If parents were taking their children or grandparents taking their grandchildren, the magician would not want to create an uncomfortable environment.
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<BR>I do not get laughs at the expense of my helpers or my audience.
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<BR>That's how I roll and how I will continue to roll.
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<BR>Iain, thanks for another great post. I appreciate your insights so much.
<BR>
<BR>Bobby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Withnail Special user 974 Posts |
I'm just sad someone feels the need to publicly defend Davidson and use him as a comparison to successful shows. Manning was the same and he made millions.
Appeal to the lowest common denominator and you will make easy money. But don't call it art or class. Davidson was and still is many things. Homophobe just scratches the tip of the iceberg. Poor analogy.
Yet again that oaf has destroyed my day
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Actually I never defended him I pointed out that the general public don't agree with the media label given to him. If you read my posts again you will see that he had the biggest vote and support ever on big brother. By a huge landslide. Whether you personally like Davidson or not is of no consequence the general public got behind him that is simply a fact.
The defense was for the inaccurate claim that stage hypnosis was no longer popular do to some of the content some hypnotist shows. that's simply not true. The only two popular stage hypnotists that fill up theatres in the UK both use adult material. If the claim was true then we would see dozens of squeaky clean hypnotists. The truth is there are none. its the over exposure selling crap courses and dealers punting secrets that have caused the problems. Not a few adult orientated shows. People can choose who they go and see the public aren't thick they can make up their own minds. And that is what will make a complete comeback unlikely. Both these arts suffer badly when the mystery and uniqueness is removed. That is the real sadness. The real truth and real sadness is the over selling of courses and products. That is the real threat to both mentalism and hypnosis and what has killed it to a large degree. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
With nail Actually both Manning and Davidson had highly successful careers and shows, Im not comparing them to success they WERE SUCCESSFUL. And so anyone who supports them is the lowest common denominator? Jesus you sound more prejudice than any jokes they could come up with.
And what about Al Murray and the example I made about the mickey take of accents. Plus he is always going on about the Germans. Do you include him in your insult to the people who go to see his shows? Where do you draw the line? People choose what they want to go and see. I am not defending anyone just pointing out a fact. If someone doesn't like a show they don't need to go and see it. The market will decide if its any good or not. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On 2014-02-15 17:24, mindpunisher wrote: there's a big difference though... people don't get to choose the type of magic they get to see at an event, as in if you have a walk-around magician, you don't really get a say in what he shows you (or if you refuse) the table next to you and so on...big difference when compared to buying a ticket for a show because you fancy the look of it... going back on to the main topic, as in what made me start the thread in the first place - is that some magicians are releasing props, decks, and gags that are quite possibly setting a bad example to the starter, to the person who just wants something fun to show his mates - and which may lay bad foundations for them, if they ever decided to up their performing experience... "oh this is ok to use...this shop sells it, this guy produces it.." and so on.. and again, I do get for a stag do or something, those kinds of things can and no doubt do work marvelously...however for me, I feel there are much better and healthier alternatives...
I've asked to be banned
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
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On 2014-02-15 17:39, IAIN wrote: In that case Iain surely its about the professionalism of the magician and his/her ability to choose suitable material? To me it would be common sense to play safe at most walk around gigs. Although I have never done them so I am no expert. Having said that I have done all kinds of events in business and would never dream of doing a risky routine. All my routines are based on motivational themes and worked in with highly crafted messages. highly relevant to the audience and squeaky clean ALWAYS. Again you can't ban bad material that's being sold or marketed you just hope that those that book magicians know how to separate the professionals from the idiots. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
For someone that says they don't care and is offering advice - you seem to be quite interested in this discussion...
I think your last post is great, and I agree - these objects/props that I mention are being released by professional magicians...and what is common sense to you or i, is obviously not to others...i know there's always a choice - but, look - if products don't sell, physical ones, if there's no market - isn't there two choices? bin the product, or create the market and make it appear desirable...
I've asked to be banned
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