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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Retention Vanish (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KenRyan
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Thanks Mano! Watching now (when I'm supposed to be in bed:-P).

Cheers!

Ken

Posted: Mar 10, 2015 12:40 am
Awesome stuff Mano! Thanks again:).
vinsmagic
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His front transposition is a killer as well
thank you for sharing mono
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
J-Mac
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Very nice, Mano! As always! Smile

Take care my friend.

Jim
Griff
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Been away from magic for awhile and I discovered this thread. Love it. I make my living as a photographer. This thread is EXACTLY like so many photography threads on those forums. Which lens is the sharpest?... There are those "pixel peepers" out there that will review a lens and then bash it after they have seen a photo magnified by 300% or more. "It is soft on the edges, and is barrel distorting in the middle". When the photo is actually printed, no one will ever notice these very slight flaws. Pixel peepers are always looking for pure perfection, instead of actually getting out there and shooting pictures. The "best" photos don't need the best lenses, they need the "moment". My point is that an effective ROV is simply a tool that gives our audience that "moment". We can "pixel peep" all we want as to finger flash, or whatever, but when it comes down to it, we are trying to fool the laymen...not the magician. If you have a good ROV and it fools people, who really cares whether it is the best ever? Just master a good ROV and then get out there and use it in your routines. I complained to a client once about the lighting during a shoot. They said "I don't care about that, I am paying you to get the shots". I got the shots. Best ever? No way, but they loved them.

By the way I use Doc Rubenstein's ROV's. Have been for a long time Smile
inigmntoya
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My other hobby is photography, and I know *exactly* what you mean. (hang around dpreview.com much?)
I think we need a magician's corollary to Ken Rockwell's 7 Levels of Photographers http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm Smile

The term for those nit picking on details to the detriment of the overall goal: measurebators Smile

Quote:
On Jun 4, 2015, Griff wrote:
Been away from magic for awhile and I discovered this thread. Love it. I make my living as a photographer. This thread is EXACTLY like so many photography threads on those forums. Which lens is the sharpest?... There are those "pixel peepers" out there that will review a lens and then bash it after they have seen a photo magnified by 300% or more. "It is soft on the edges, and is barrel distorting in the middle". When the photo is actually printed, no one will ever notice these very slight flaws. Pixel peepers are always looking for pure perfection, instead of actually getting out there and shooting pictures. The "best" photos don't need the best lenses, they need the "moment". My point is that an effective ROV is simply a tool that gives our audience that "moment". We can "pixel peep" all we want as to finger flash, or whatever, but when it comes down to it, we are trying to fool the laymen...not the magician. If you have a good ROV and it fools people, who really cares whether it is the best ever? Just master a good ROV and then get out there and use it in your routines. I complained to a client once about the lighting during a shoot. They said "I don't care about that, I am paying you to get the shots". I got the shots. Best ever? No way, but they loved them.

By the way I use Doc Rubenstein's ROV's. Have been for a long time Smile
JoshTmagic
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This may not be the best source but there is a free download teaching the retention vanish on penguin magic.
KenRyan
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Thanks Josh. I've become a bit of a retention vanish "collector," looking for all the different methods. Do you happen to have a link for the one you describe?

Thanks.

Ken
daniel116
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Hey everybody
A while back I read somewhere that John Carney said that a retention vanish is an obsolete move or something like that, because a transfer should be done on the off-beat, and so focusing on creating a "burn" is not necessary at all.
I don't know if that's exactly what he said, but does anyone know where John Carney said that? I'm looking for the source.
Thanks
Mb217
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With all due respect to the absolutely great, John Carney, if he said such a thing, I would humbly beg to differ somewhat from the cheap seats here… Smile

All moves have their place, and there are varying vanishes and passes that work better in some cases than others. The Retention Vanish is one of the better vanishes IMHO, in that it is one of the only such moves that absolutely lock the focusing mind on where the coin was last seen. When done well, it is very hard for a spec to deviate their attention from the hand they just saw a coin fairly, "most visibly" placed into (I have great practice in this and study it often within the midst of my presentations).

Of course, the goal is to simply fool the spec into believing that you put the coin in your hand, well, that can be done with a simple pass as well I suppose. Where the RV excels is that beyond the simple "action/miming movements" of placing the coin into the hand (which admittedly in most cases is all it takes), it goes further and allows the spec's mind, via his eyes, to further believe through the persistence of vision that the coin is indeed where the mind is already absolutely sure that it is and that thought is reliably filtered through their logic on witnessing the effect…That is to say, that with the RV, it [the mind] is absolutely sure where it is, or something like that. Smile

Moreover, sometimes you want this form of absolutism to form in the spec's mind, as it assists in your more skillful presentation of the rest of the effect. I use the move regularly, and sometimes while I could gitter-done with a seeming pass, I prefer the cleaner show of the coin being put into the hand, and the clearer/surer vision it creates in the spec's mind. It gives me the open opportunity to be bolder/more confident, if you will…Sorta like knowing you're holding 4 Aces playing with guys steady raising their bets holding straights and full houses. Smile

Of course, to each his own, but to me (besides some of the wonderful things you can do with Sl**ving vanishes) the Retention Vanish is right atop the pile in the way of optimum effectiveness.

It's not everyday you get to somewhat disagree with an absolute legend like John Carney, and perhaps on this little thing, maybe be even a bit more right than wrong. Oh well, either-which-way, that's what I think about it. I hope someone tells John. Smile
*Check out my latest: The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
funsway
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The, why stop there, MB Smile

"with the RV, it [the mind] is absolutely sure where it is, or something like that."

This "knowing" as apposed to "believing" can be achieved by actually placing the coin in the receiving hand, showing the passing hand completely empty, then using a Kick-Back or Idling technique to get the coin back to the passing hand later. You don't have to "flash" -- you show the coin in the receiving hand because it is there, and show the passing hand empty because it is.

While not every situation allows for such a stratagem, to do so occasionally can "close the door" on any suspicions of prior or later RV passes (or Basic types).

I read into Carney's offerings (and other greats) that any sleight should strive for the "never happened" framing, with the flow of the entire effect "masking" the choice of fake/false transfer.

As used by many performers (opinion), the desire to "flash" draws attention to the coin and the receiving hand when they should be thinking of something else.

If one adds the ideal that there should be a valid reason for placing the coin in the other hand, focusing on the receiving hand may be unwise.

The Flash is just one of many Ploys that can be used to shift the spectator from implication to inference, and false anticipation upon which astonishment is built.

If the choice of sleight is a matter of skill demonstration then the magic is lost.

Yes, seeking "the best" RV is of value, but so is practicing subtle actions enforcing the "knowing" of where the coin is.

Mb is a master of the "whole effect" rather than just "the move," and the wink certainly doesn't come just after the RV.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Jonathan Townsend
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Offering a demonstration of an impressive false transfer is not the same as demonstrating magic. The false transfer illusion gets you ahead of the game, buying you some advantage. Okay they believe it went in your other hand. When does the magic begin? What's the effect?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Mb217
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Quote:
On Jun 6, 2015, funsway wrote:
Then, why stop there, MB Smile
...


I stop there so that many fine others, like yourself here, might take the wheel and render varying directions on this journey. Smile

Good points made, my friend. Smile


Quote:
On Jun 6, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
...Okay they believe it went in your other hand. When does the magic begin? What's the effect?


I'm thinking something like this, but you tell me?… Smile

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYLZpfEqfM

Magic! Smile
*Check out my latest: The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
KenRyan
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Yup!!! Thanks for that one, MB!

Ken
MICKEY SILVER
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Well said Jonathan & MB > "OKAY THEY BELIEVE IT WENT IN YOUR OTHER HAND" ...NOW WHAT?

"MICKEY SILVER"
KenRyan
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I have finally fooled my wife with this! That is a heck of an accomplishment:-). I have been doing what I IMAGINE Mickey to be doing, and whether it is or not, it's now working really well for ME:-).

Quick question: I still have a bit of a a bend in my right index finger "putting" hand) during the move. It doesn't seem to detract from the effect, and if I point at my "receiving" closed fist with it (thanks for that Mickey!), it at least gives a plausible reason for the movement, which is often good enough to allay suspicious specs. But I wondered if I should work at reducing how much that index finger bends? I've experimented with changing my movements and can sometimes reduce it, but it usually means doing something ELSE that detracts from the effect.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Ken
funsway
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Ken, why not practice having your index finger bent slightly all of the time -- natural for you?

Not joking. An open hand gesture with all finger partially curved can be vey natural and less intimidating than a straight finger. (what I call Splay)

Old elocution books caution against straight finger gestures. Also best palm up and then rotating over for a point.

Coincidentally, Liwag Subtlety can be done at the same time with ease.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
vinsmagic
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Https://youtu.be/Mo5qFz9nVSM

mickey silver there will never ever be another mickey
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
KenRyan
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Thanks Ken. The "bend" I'm talking about is more of a "crook" than a natural curve. And it really isn't the bend itself as much as it is the fact that it's ONLY the index finger doing it while the other fingers remain curved together. The inner knuckle of my index finger rises above the rest of the fingers for an instant.

It isn't really a huge problem, like I said. I think it only sticks with me because David Roth cautions against it in his version of the Retention Vanish on his Expert Magic Made Easy DVDs. That's what called it to my attention in the first place. But, it IS a different move, and in this ROV pass, you can offer a reason for the movement. So it may be fine. I just wasn't sure if I should worry about trying very hard to stop my index finger tenting above the other fingers in that one instant.

BTW, yes, I totally see how Liwag Subtlety can easily be used here, though mainly I've been just using the straight Ramsay Sublety. I have really come to love the LS thanks to you and MB:-).

Cheers!

Ken
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