I like the Rubenstein tapes, too. I work on his 3 variations, and particularly like his use of fewer fingers. Seems quicker, but possibly more angle-prone after the move, at least for me.

While practicing, I did one thing to help get an idea of the "timing". I did the whole thing very slowly, except the actual "steal", which I did at more or less normal speed. When working on the one by Vernon (in Bobo's) I found this to be particularly helpful. I could see how it was meant to look; both hands seemed to be behaving naturally. I couldn't quite "get it" before, doing each part at the same speed.

I can't wait to see the Mickey Silver version. And I would probably buy a "dedicated booklet or video" on various retention techniques. Pointers on retention-click passes and "double" retention vanishes would be pretty handy, too.

Mickey Silver will have a DVD out soon. Get it ASAP when it comes out. This will be all you need.

It's the second sleight that kicks it up for me...he "shows" the coin is still there (it never was)...and it's gone! I would SWEAR I saw the coin go unmistakeably in the hand...that method of doing the ROV, then going back, SHOWING the coin is still there, and ROV'ing again...then, the routine with two coins...ear to ear to mouth to hand, slam into the ear, out the other ear, into the mouth, out the ear...

He calls it "bouncing around the retention of vision"...and that's exactly what he does...the psychology is perfect. The eating of the coins part, still makes me laugh till I cry...I envy Jim Canaday for being able to hang out with him...sure miss Boston...

Doug

It's hard to believe this is an 11-year-old thread:). But it's exactly where I am with the retention vanish, and the above posts are really helpful. For a couple of months I thought I was doing it right because I was following the steps in Bobo, and then in Kaufman's "David Roth's Expert Coin Magic." But after awhile I realized it wasn't working - not as it is supposed to - actually utilizing the ROV effect. I have been working this over and over, slow, medium and fast, and I'm still not getting it. This thread helped a lot - as old as it is.

My question now is if, in the last 11 years, the suggested dedicated booklet or video ever happened? Or have there been any other developments in this excellent illusion?

Thanks!

Ken

Ken,

After all that time and effort, from good instruction, I'm pretty sure you have this thing down quite a bit better than you think.

Mickey's RV is a special one indeed, but it works on the same principle. Find your own place in it and with it and that will be good enough in most cases. Indeed, I believe that you are already where you want to be.

I'm afraid not, Ken. Enough members here convinced Mickey that releasing this might not be such a great idea! Look at YouTube for why...

Sad but true. To keep this sleight Mickey's, he has to keep it to himself. Someone said it could NOT be taught. So, Mickey taught it to Vinny. Vinny is the ONLY one with Mickey's real work. Am I happy about this? Yes and no.

I have practiced my ROV for 10 years now. It's a variation of Michael Rubinstein's. It works for me. Is it as good as Mickey's? NO-hell no! To bring it to Mickey's level, I'd have to take on Mickey's persona. I tell ya friends, I would look silly as HELL!

Forget copying him. Bring your OWN into this level! Find one ya like, Roth, Watkins, Rubinstein, and WORK it! Backwards and forwards! Tell a story! A reason the coin does what it does! Practice timing! Mickey's ear to ear is a good one to watch. The off-beat. The weight-shift. Look at his eyes. The expression.

You cannot teach this. You either have the personality or ya don't. I don't. I'm as dull as a chicken-stump fence. I cannot smile like Mickey. If I tried, it would be a horrific grimace! I get by. I work within my means. We have to be who we are. That's why I'm glad Mickey will not teach his ROV.

Doug

Bill Palmer says The best, absolute BEST, retention of vision vanish is Mickey Silver's.
yes but he doesn't teach it;;
yes this is true Mickey taught me his SUV over 15 YEARS AGO. I never use it .thpought the closet person that comes close to it is my dentist friend in washington


vinny

Thanks Marion and Doug. I spent a goodly couple of hours in front of a mirror last night and after watching every video in this and another ROV thread I found on TMC (plus putting that section of the Roth DVD on a loop:)). I was able to get the timing down to flash that burn! So the ROV effect is finally coming along. Thanks for the confidence, Marion! You're right. It was there. I just needed to tweak some timing issues - actual speed and relative speed of the elements, combined with experimenting with smooth and snappy movements.

My "dirty" hand, however, has much to be desired. The fingers wiggle and bend too much during the steal. I'm starting to really see why folks are saying to try different methods of stealing the coin because I suspect the Roth finger/hand motion may not work as well for me as something else, perhaps due in part (perhaps entirely) to my monstrous alien hands:-P (8.5 inches from base of hand to tip of middle finger and an 11-inch hand span). And size notwithstanding, relative length of fingers to each other, fingers to size of palm, etc. also serve to differentiate one person's hands from another. For example, I have a digit ratio of less than 1 (index finger shorter than ring finger). I have no idea what that might mean - if anything - for being better suited to one method over another. That might be an interesting study:).

Also, everything I just mentioned is mechanical in nature. I didn't mention persona, personality, context of the routine, etc. Those are obviously important too, and will be a factor in the ROV vanish/pass (Roth has "retention pass" in the DVD but Kaufman says "retention vanish" in "Expert Coin Magic").

Thanks again for the additional insight!

Cheers,

Ken

Agreed!

Work within your means behind good basics, and just do YOU!

Of the big, small & all, most coin magicians, to me, are not Mickey Silver, and do not wish to be for reasons that doug here alludes to. Everything doesn't work for everyone, but this unique aspect works for Mickey. In what he does, he's sorta made himself a part of the move, while most others simply use the move as a ways to a means.

For most, the focus is not kept on the move, but for Mickey, the move is the focus, is the magic…And that's why he uses it in the countless ways he has made so interesting and memorably magical…He's taken a note and created a symphony…He's indeed made magic from the move itself, sorta like making a simple hammer or nail dance, or something like that.

Vinny is too modest.

He has a POV move based on his Crimp that has the coin already in Palm position when the FULL coin is seen dropping into the receiving hand.

Thus, there is absolutely no finger movement of the placing hand as the receiving hand closes.

Then the passing hand rests on the table with fingers spread wide open.

Gets my vote

Funsway - I agree! I'm still pretty new, but I don't usually this move done where you could see the coin THROUGH the fingers of the receiving hand (maybe with Mickey Silver's handling?) thus giving you even LESS time to steal it, as in Vinny's version. It's incredibly deceptive. I like it a lot.

My two pence.

Ken

I beieve this is the vanish ken is talking about.
and mickey Silver loved this as well I hope you all do

http://youtu.be/Wg7SKD3xT5I

" EXCELLENT VINNY".................. You are the best ever !!!!



"MICKEY SILVER"

Actually, Vinny, I was talking about your Snap, Crackle, Pop. But this one is awesome as well. Thanks!

Ken

Fantastic Vinny! (As usual)

Thanks!

Jim

Too many "kens" here --
or is that misdirection?

Please notice Vinny's ability to have his Passing Hand flat on the table with spread fingers after the False Transfer,

and his "CrossToss" for the final reveal to suggest that the coin was there all the time but perhaps invisible.

Methinks that often magicians focus too much on the purity of the single sleight rather then the impact of the entire effect.

The superb "flash" in Vinny's handling is not just to support the "knowing" that the coin is in the receiving hand,

but to misdirect away from the Passing Hand when the reveal occurs.

Since the performer knows the audience is certain the coin is in the Receiving Hand it is easier to act as if it is.

Following Al Schneider's practice guide you learn to "feel" the coin in that hand and appreciate its texture and weight.

Thus, a "retention vanish" is not a single sleight, but a combination of moves to create a memory and story.

Good points, Ken... (Funsway, that is). Just about every aspect of each of Vinny's moves was done perfectly, from start to finish.

Jim

Hi jim I updated the demo and sent you a pm
vinny

Thanks Vinny!

Jim

A new twist to an old effect,
a new song to a remembered tune

Marini’s Slide Away

I know a fine, most special move,
that can your magic sure improve.
A coin, a hand in gentle crimp –
It’s called Marini’s Slide Away, ole’

All you see is an empty hand,
a grasp of coin it does intend,
and, no one sees the secret bend –
with fingers wide that steal away, ole’

If you do retention as books have taught so well,
your fumbling hands and doubt will provide a tell.
But if you Crimp that coin as Vinny demonstrates
it will be gone without a trace save sense of awe.

Just flash and glide and close your fist, and know that eyes and mind cannot resist.
Then show both hands as vacant space, but close once more just in case
the coin returns in a magic way, ole’