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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Retention Vanish (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mb217
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Quote:
On Feb 21, 2015, cperkins wrote:
I agree with the good Doctor - lots of different styles and methods to accomplish the same thing and the true test is whether it convinces the spectator. But since there are so many different techniques to accomplish it, (thanks in part to all those who have so willingly shared their methods with the magic community thru publication), its only natural to compare. Its what we do as coin magicians, and its fun to look at various and unusual examples of excellence when they come along. And occasionally a paragon comes along and inspires us all.

And we all know, in the context of a larger routine, a good vanish doesn't even have to be of the "retention" variety to be convincing. I look at Gregory Wilson do his thing with his audience, but I wouldn't consider him a stickler on technique or his vanish of a coin(s) a " beautiful thing." But he is totally convincing and his magic is strong.

We compare because occasionally we come across exceptional examples and its fun to do this, even though we all know such levels of perfection are not necessary to execute good magic.

A more edifying conversation might be WHY a particular technique or execution is stronger than another - comparisons, when analyzed with detail, can inform.

Brady or Manning?

chuck


Very well put.

I only offered a couple of lines as to all this, but really I think we're all saying a lot of the same things with Mickey Silver's work being the epicenter nowadays. Again, his use of this move is the best I've ever seen. And the fact that for most it is just a move, a ways to a means, but for Mickey it is a lot more than that and he did a lot more with it, provenly so IMHO. There is no disrespect toward any of the fine others mentioned and their contributions, and heck, the RV taught in Bobo's is all you need and when well done looks as good as anything within the context of what mostly it's used for in an effect, just like all the others. Again, what Mickey does is quite unique and worthy of deeper consideration, conversations, and analysis.

As to "comparisons," human beings compare everything, basketball players, religions, presidents, girls, themselves, everything. It is simply a main part in distinguishing good-better-best in the ways we should go, a mental faculty used to determine the differences in varying shades of gray in order to offer more choice and possibility as we might need to use it. Some comparisons are hard to make, or perhaps shouldn't be made but the mind does this as it is will in its better discernment of that reality. Nothing escapes this, it's a part of our sense of logic and order and happens automatically as to just about everything, even magic. Deeper and deeper debates as to this will deliver responses flavored with individual opinions, some cheering, some reserved. And I had forgotten how great Denis Behr's RV was, it really is a thing of beauty, but even his is shown/used as in demonstrating a move. I still say that what Mickey has done with all this is way beyond what has been done, or something like that. Smile
*Check out my latest: The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


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funsway
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And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened.

Only later when the coin is somewhere other than expected does one attempt to remember -- and be wrong.

It is often the setting/framing in which a coin is placed in the other hand for no reason that makes the Sleight visible.

In Mickeys routines you don't know what to expect and there is no anticipation -- so, no suspicion or tell.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:
Yea, but you didn't answer my question. Why is what a camera sees relevant to what a spectator sees?

How

Some folks in audiences told me about how they look at things and what they notice.

The camera records in a way that lets one review the material looking at the screen rather than at the performer's presumed focus of attention.

Quote:
On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:
And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened...


IE the transfer not being recalled as relevant by an attentive audience or well informed magicians? Best of luck in your work at that goal. On the other side of that objective is what the audience could report as magical. Go for it. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
evikshin
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As someone who uses the retention vanish quite often in his coin routines and gets away with it these days Smile, I do think that cutting down on finger motion is important, but it's importance is grossly stated. Just about every great retention vanish has slight finger motion, whether it's David Roth's, Vinny's, or Mickey Silver's. However, it's the rhythm, patter, and timing which renders the finger motion invisible to a layperson with no magical knowledge (though not necessarily to a magician).
In terms of rhythm, having a right hand that lingers too long behind the left covering fingers is usually a massive tell, even if you can do the steal with zero finger movement! In fact when I first started, I learned this lesson the hard way, and was humiliated at my work place by a know it all (who in fact really did "know it all.").

Food for thought: the usual method of doing the retention vanish involves using the left hand (the take hand) to close over the right hand (put hand). The left hand effectively "screens" the dirty work done by the right hand, in other words, the steal is not done UNTIL the right fingers are completely covered by the left fingers. This has been the way the traditional retention vanish has been taught (See Bobo's). Obviously this way works, otherwise the teaching method would not have survived the past 75 years or so. But it is this best way? Is it possible to do the steal before the left hand actually closes, with minimal cover??? Sounds impossible and counter intuitive...
vinsmagic
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A whileback imentioned there was one magician that cam very close to what Mikey does
thnd that person is Evikshin and is way to modest to say so
the last quest you said is it possible to do the steal before the hand closes . Evik you know it is
and this is why mikceys suv is the best
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funsway
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Quote:
On Feb 21, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:
And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened...


IE the transfer not being recalled as relevant by an attentive audience or well informed magicians? Best of luck in your work at that goal. On the other side of that objective is what the audience could report as magical. Go for it. Smile


Thanks for the clarifications. I have never been concerned over the fact that some in the audience may be using a camera rather than their eyes. Guess I should be.

Years ago I predicted that a strolling magician could set up a device and allow the spectator to select and watch their favorite magic effect on screen. No need to learn a POV at all!. Sooner than I thought.

...............

All that is required is making the Reveal asynchronous to the Transfer.

Most of the stated problems above seem to come from an immediate reveal of Vanish just after the Transfer is complete. No luck involved.

By various Methods the Passing Hand can be shown completely empty before any Reveal.

or, the flow of the routine does not have the observer place any special attention tot he Transfer as part of Expectation or Anticipation.

It is when the spectator Anticipates the Place/Take and Vanish that attention goes to the wrong place.

When you do a POV type Retention Pass you are deliberately drawing attention to the coin and creating Anticipation that something will happen to it. Thus, there is less Astonishment when it vanishes.

If one were to just count several coins into the other hand (say three) and the audience does not have Anticipation that anything strange is about to occur,

then when one vanishes and appears elsewhere it seems quite magical. Check with Jonathan about 3Fly!

Oh, you are ;-)

The point is that is you draw focuses attention to your hands and the coin you lose some ability to complain that they were watching your hands and guessing how it slipped away.

How can the effect be better framed is the question, not whose flash is better.


Vinny's method is followed by Table Rest of his Passing hand completely flat on the table with fingers spread.

Mickey frequently shows the the coin in still apparently in his left hand (but never is). The flash is just part of the illusion.

Part of the performer's task is to teach the audience what story to tell.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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J-Mac
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The above posts by Evikshin and Funsway contain some of the best advice on false transfers I have seen here, period.

Thanks to both for their wisdom! You don't always get that here.

Jim
RLMASKI87
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I think David Roth says when it comes to practicing in front of a camera is that the camera doesn't blink. For some people tend to blink at the moment they do a vanish or a move because they want so much for it to look good. I think in some instances doing the move in front of the camera is very helpful to what a spectator may see.
cperkins
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A very personal take away I've learned from following Mickey around Massachusetts for his magic lectures is that the last act necessary for completing a retention of vision vanish (for me), or any vanish, is to allow the spectaor to see the empty palm of the transfer hand BEFORE I show the vanish. This is entirely congruent with what would be a real physical act of transfer. And it is a passive act on my part, i.e., I don't show it so much as the spectator observes for him or herself that the transfer hand is now as it should be.....empty. I think Funsway calls this "pre-emptive guilt." I believe this little detail that comes at the end of the simple transfer but before the reveal is critical to the entire vanish because it would complete the phenominon if the transfer were for real. It serves as almost a subconscious convincer before the reveal of the vanish, and then every act of the simple transfer looks natural. Thus, the spectator is as Jonathan Townsend would say, "perceiving a simple flow of mundane action." For me this is as important as the "burn."

A great example to observe this technique repeatedly is with Mickey Silver's ear to ear coin penetration routine. Each coin penetration thru his ear and out the other is really a series of vanishes and productions. Each time a coin "enters" his ear, it visibily disappears in every respect from his transfer hand (open empty palm of the transfer hand), BEFORE emerging on the other side - a natural result were it for real and, the perfect illusion. This is the technique upon which the entire illusion of penetration of matter rests and is just as crucial for a simple vanish from hand to hand.

Sorry for the long description - hope its understandable.

This is always an interesting topic
chuck
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe)
funsway
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Cperkins -- good thoughts

the fact that a series of vanishes and appearances is translated into motion by the human mind is one of the "secrets' upon which magic depends.

There other reasons to support that Transportation Effect are the most powerful magic effects you can do. The audience wants to believe that they can be somewhere else when needed or danger cals or they are embarrassed.

So, a Vanish can be a tool for greater things -- yet many performers turn it into a skill demonstration.

My "preemptive doubt" theory comes form decades of realize that "doubt" comes form confusion -- so, eliminate the confusion and there is no doubt.

The ideal False Transfer is where the coin is clearly seen to be in the Receiving Hand and the Passing hand is clearly and completely empty. Any other "pretend at" risks confusion.

Now, such Fakes methods may be required by the framing of the effect, but the choice should not be "this is my favorite POV or FakeTake."

I am helping Vinny document his methods so that more people can learn them -- not as a replacement of what they now do, but as an alternative.

I will slip in a lot of theory and psychology so that "just maybe" the performer can make the right choice for their next show.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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cperkins
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Another example I might add to my post above; that in a vanish, paying attention to not only the receiving hand (i.e., the burn), but also of the subtlety that transpires in the "put" hand is what helps makes the magic of Mb217 so believable and powerful. He's a master of the Ramsey and its variants - not sure if this is also a Mickey influence on him or an independently arrived at practice on his part - but its a heavy influence on his magic and it is very effective.
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe)
Jonathan Townsend
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Turn the sound off and watch the fingers of his rightt hand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXPS7OScY4Q

12-14, 18-20
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Michael Rubinstein
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A move is just a move. Its what you do with it that makes or breaks it. I think when people talk about the "best" move, they are talking about the context in how it is used. That would make more sense to me then saying that analyzing a move in slow motion allows you to see a slight finger bend or some other tell. I am going to post a few retention moves a bit later (time permitting). You guys can compare and discuss if you want. My feeling is that a move should never be seen out of context but seem in the context of how it is used. Some moves are better suited for specific situations, such as hand position at the time of the move.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
CarpetShark
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This is one of the best threads I've read here in some time! Looking forward to seeing Doc's RoVs as well Smile
David Neighbors
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Thanks Michael,

That's what I been trying to say for the last 30 years or so. Marlo Used to say " didn't it LOOK like he place the coin in the Hand!!! " He was NOT!!! Saying how great Someone's Retention WAS!!! You should not say anything You are just Putting the coin in the other hand! But it's about WHY are you placing The Coin In the other HAND ??? What your reason or motivation For doing That? As one of the old Masters used To Say. " The false Placement is only the beginning of the Vanish! " So you Should not Take all day to put in it there. That is not when the Magic Is Happening! Now what are you going to do next??? Is the coin going to jump under a card or a coin purse, Are you putting it in your Pocket An it's going to jump back out, or go trou the pocket? 30 or so sec's after the coin vanish's no matter how good your vanish was, A layman Mite thank "it's In the other Hand!" You Have to be able show that it's gone somewhere. Or Be able to ditch it Somewhere! SOOO it's all about The Flow of the Routine! And As Michael Say's " A move is just A Move" It About the MAGIC!!!
David Neighbors



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Michael Rubinstein
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Amen!
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
vinsmagic
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A move is just a move except when showing it to a camera...
vinny
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fonda57
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I've been doing a routine in which I "put" a coin in one hand and say it will turn into----but it vanishes, so I get another from my pocket and try again. I don't say what it will turn into. I play it as though I am surprised that it vanished, and this happens two or three times, before changing into a blue rock, which then becomes a red rock.

I think the idea that I didn't mean for the coin to vanish plays in my favor. Just for the fun of it I do a retention pass once and have not been questioned. Not yet, anyway.

I got this presentation idea, which is mostly like a Spellbound, from when I stayed at the Red Rock in Vegas recently.

I think a retention pass works best if you don't draw undo attention to it, like "I'm going to put this coin in my hand and it will vanish." Just do it and keep in motion as part of a routine.
I j
David Neighbors
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Yea stuff Doing something you don't want it too Is Classic And goes a long ways Back. So I think that's a great way to go!:)
David Neighbors



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Michael Rubinstein
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Here is an example of three different retention vanishes. There are so many different techniques, I hope you enjoy these:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7z85ZHZTkck
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
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