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Melies Regular user Boston 114 Posts |
Yes, of course I do (think it's wrong, that is!). However, since I'm writing a book on the subject right now, and since other Café-ers probably find this discussion tedious, I'll refrain from going into it. PM me if you'd like to see some of my published writing on the subject. The one thing I *will* say is that the fact that many people--indeed, the vast majority--see nothing wrong with our treatment of the other animals doesn't mean that they're right. Slavery flourished in the Middle East, China, Europe, Africa, and parts of the Americas for thousands of years, and was defended by some of the greatest minds our species has produced (Aristotle among them). But the fact that practically everyone believed slavery to be natural and right didn't make it right....
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
In discourse ... odd to put the notion of natural against appeals to a sense of social identity or vanity. Does the tiger feel less pretty before it hunts? or after? do we feel more human if we don't put ketchup on our burger?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote: Nobody suggested that it did. And your slavery analogy is far off the mark. Biologically, people were designed to eat meat. Writing about it doesn't change that fact. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote: Tut tut. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On Apr 12, 2015, S2000magician wrote: Biologically, people were designed to listen to Justin Bieber songs. That doesn't make it moral. Again, we have to look outside nature for our moral parameters.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, landmark wrote: I think that nature is EXACTLY where we have to look for our moral parameters. But it's the wrong question to ask what is "natural"; rather, we should ask what is *good* according to nature. Other than religious belief, it's really the only guide we have. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: If by "nature" you include the consequences of rational deliberation, I'm with you.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 12, 2015, Melies wrote: Personally, I don't find it remotely tedious. I think that "treating animals well" includes not killing them because they happen to taste good.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: You were banned, so your opinion doesn't count. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 10, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote: If your justification for omnivorism is Biblical, one interesting argument I've read from a Christian vegan is that Adam and Eve were originally in their "more perfect" state) vegetarians, as there was no death in the Garden of Eden; thus, to the extent that meat-eating is condoned in the Bible, it is only as a result of their fallen nature, and nothing something one should aspire to. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the theological position of vegetarianism in the Garden of Eden. I've also heard the argument that many Biblical moral rules are related to health, and it may be that meat eating (from a Biblical perspective) was acceptable as a necessary means of obtaining protein that no longer applies. Food for thought (pun intended).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote: I've paid my debt to society!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 9, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote: Would you say that it isn't cruel to kill a person as long as his death is painless?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
I would say that it isn't cruel to eat a person, as long as his death was unintentional.
WAIT! I'm confused. Am I responding to Lobo? Really? Am I dreaming? |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: More to the point, it isn't cruel to eat anything, provided it's dead. And yes, he has risen (from café prison).
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: What's your recidivism rate? |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Indeed. Which means this whole line of discussion is irrelevant to the OP. How we treat animals is one thing; how we eat them (or not eat them) is another. Some philosopher that other guy is. (He's trying to steal my thunder!) |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: Ummmmm nice try. C'mon, Stone. We're not talking about eating accidental roadkill. The fact that billions of animals are killed intentionally for the express purpose of being eaten is *quite* relevant. Or have you forgotten your very own "as long as his death was unintentional" disclaimer?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, S2000magician wrote: It's pretty high. Apparently.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Right. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous.
But I like to make distinctions. Treating pets is different from treating livestock. Treating livestock for their milk is different than treating them for their meat. Prison is not an abattoir. A brothel is not a dairy farm. Animals don't sit in prison for 30 years falsely convicted. WAIT! Maybe I'm the real weirdo, because I would prefer we don't kill anything but kale. About that I am ruthless. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: No because humans have a soul while animals do not. This goes back to Christianity, which does not have meaning to everyone.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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