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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » You are getting sleepy...very sleepy... » » Kreskin: Hypnosis or Just Suggestion (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mtpascoe
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Don’t you think that Kreskin is just playing fast and loose with wording when he says he doesn’t use hypnosis, but just suggestion? Isn’t it basically the same thing? Thought all hypnosis is suggestion. So how does Kreskin get away with this bold claim that hypnosis doesn’t work? And if he is not using hypnosis, then what techniques does he use?
Anthony Jacquin
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Hippolyte Bernheim (1840-1919) the father of twentieth century hypnosis, famously said, ‘It is suggestion that rules hypnotism’.

I suspect Kreskin adopts a non-state view of hypnosis. Possibly as something the subject is responsible for, or more accurately capable of, given the right instruction.

Some commentators go as far to say that because hypnosis cannot be proved to be a unique state, hypnosis does not exist. Brain imaging can identify physiological markers that make clear a distinction between someone who is responding to a specific suggestion and someone who is simply acting. However no consistent and reliable evidence exists for an independent hypnotic or trance state.

It has been argued that in trying to understand hypnosis, state versus non-state theories only offer us a false dichotomy. We might do better to accept the lack of evidence for a unique state, and instead focus on special process, social-psychological or cognitive-behavioural models. These more modern views of hypnosis can describe it's subjective nature as points on a continuum, rather than as a dichotomy.
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
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mindpunisher
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Hypnosis has been mentioned 12 times above in those two short posts which is pretty impressive for something that doesn't "exist".

Who says hypnosis has to be a unique or supernatural state? What is a unique state anyway? Every state experienced is "experienced" as unique anyway.

According to one dictionary description of trance is :

a half-conscious state, seemingly between sleeping and waking, in which ability to function voluntarily may be suspended.
2.
a dazed or bewildered condition.
3.
a state of complete mental absorption or deep musing.

So wheres the argument trance exists its an everyday ordinary function..

Here is the thing although we believe we are - we are never really fully conscious and in control of our behaviour and the results we create. Unconscious influences affect us on a daily basis. What you see on stage is just an example of how our minds work naturally only an amplified out of context example. So if we are semi conscious at the best if not all the time in other words most of who we are what we perceive and how we react is driven unconsciously then we are constantly in a trance of some sort.

Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states. A trance state is just the current configuration of reality.

When you get into all this theory mumbo jumbo and scientific research trying to prove something that really has no value you take your eye off where you can actually use hypnosis to effect real change and create real results. You tie your head in knots and minimalize your ability as a "hypnotist".......

Here is an example recent client going out of business marriage on the rocks losing his home. Recruitment agent billed £6000 in the first two months of 2013. This year he billed over £40 000. Example of "unconscious amplification".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAqm5o1WNYU&feature=share


Kreskin draws attention to himself by the claims he makes maybe he even believes them. But for something that doesn't exist it sure ha been good to him over the years.
mtpascoe
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Thanks mindpunisher, I agree. I had an argument with someone a few months trying to tell them that we are not in control of our behaviors. As Americans, we seem to think we have freedoms and no one can control us, but that’s far from the truth.

To control anyone subconsciously, all you have to do is get them emotionally charged up and you have entered their subconscious. Anyone can do this, it’s called pushing someone’s buttons. But, because we are suppose to be in control, we don’t acknowledge this.

As far as Kreskin, he states that everything is suggestion. What advance techniques is he using? It’s suggestion, but it’s also hypnosis. That’s like saying I am eating an apple, but not a fruit. You are eating both. I think he does this to make himself standout from the rest who does the same thing.
mindpunisher
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The problem is that language doesn't really explain much. And when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more we dismiss it even further.

We don't even react to abstract language the same we attach our own constructs experiences to the meanings. In fact the more abstract we get the less it really means in terms of a collective reality. In other words we are stuck in our own trances. Why we all see different things and argue endlessly. The bigger and more complex the words used to try explain away hypnosis the less they actually say and the more they leave up to the imagination. Tie your head in knots.
Dannydoyle
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You are getting caught up in terms that mean nothing as to how the ends are accomplished. What he tells the audience isnnot necessarily the truth of the matter. Hypnosis or suggestion often is a distinction without a difference.

Why get caught up in definitions?

Your example of pushing buttons is not quite what you make it. Freedom has nothing to do with manipulation. All you do is muddy things up quite badly when you do this. Occam's razor and all that.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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You can argue about definitions or the polarity of research or you can focus on what you want to create using and developing what you know. Personally I find the latter much more valuable and a lot more interesting. It has taken me down roads and enabled me to do things most people think are not possible.
Anthony Jacquin
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Quote:
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more, we dismiss it even further.


Quote:
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states.
Anthony Jacquin

Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis
Updated for 2016

Now on Kindle and Audible!
mtpascoe
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Thanks all for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
quicknotist
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Kreskin has been on this tip for decades and it really doesn't seem to matter. There's still plenty of work out there for all of us.
Well... some of us anyway...
TonyB2009
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I am with Kreskin - and many other greats. I don't believe hypnosis, if it exists, has anything whatsoever to do with what goes on on stage. If you need to hypnotise them you are doing something wrong. A stage show is an exercise in compliance. Whether you use suggestion, hypnosis, cueing, it techniques like those described in Telepathy in Action is immaterial. All that matters is the result.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On Mar 13, 2014, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more, we dismiss it even further.


Quote:
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states.



in this case "just" is put in front of process not "hypnosis" in order to position hypnosis as part of our every day functioning. Nothing supernatural or something to be proved or not. When you do this you then see the patterns in everyday events and are then able to use hypnosis with much more leverage and in many more applications with much better results. Because the focus goes from "is hypnosis real" or "is this person hypnotized" to "how can I make this result happen". Hypnosis then becomes "just" a tool( diminishing the event of hypnosis to a tool- not diminishing its value or the complexity of what might or might not be happening) . This is like having a forum of joiners arguing whether a hammer exists or not. Its ridiculous.

To say hypnosis is "just" suggestion or placebo diminishes both these terms which are a lot more complex. Hypnosis actually amplifies both these things which can actually make physical changes in people. Something very powerful and still not fully understood by science. Learning to be even more skilled at doing that is something that shouldn't be diminished in my opinion. If you do then you don't bother learn how to leverage this "process" in ways that can really leave you stunned by the results.


"just" in this case diminishes the positioning and leads the focus to where the most value is to be gained from learning how to apply hypnosis.

If you are a performing hypnotist the hypnosis is just part of what you do in order to give people an experience of being entertained.
If you do therapy or are a performance coach then hypnosis is just a tool the goal is to give your client desired result.

None of the above arguing no amount of reading research papers learning fancy words or terms will make you any better. learning to USE something that obviously exists or we wouldn't be here is what matters.
mindpunisher
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On Mar 14, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
I am with Kreskin - and many other greats. I don't believe hypnosis, if it exists, has anything whatsoever to do with what goes on on stage. If you need to hypnotise them you are doing something wrong. A stage show is an exercise in compliance. Whether you use suggestion, hypnosis, cueing, it techniques like those described in Telepathy in Action is immaterial. All that matters is the result.


So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.
mindpunisher
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Compliance suggests that we go along and obey and its sort of a conscious decision to do so. How does someone decide or obey to have complete amnesia? Especially when its never suggested? Going by the definition below it doesn't cover my experience of what happens on stage. There maybe compliance at certain stages but its not the whole picture...


compliance
  Use Compliance in a sentence
com·pli·ance
[kuhm-plahy-uhns] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of conforming, acquiescing, or yielding.
2.
a tendency to yield readily to others, especially in a weak and subservient way.
3.
conformity; accordance: in compliance with orders.
4.
cooperation or obedience: Compliance with the law is expected of all
TonyB2009
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On Mar 15, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.

No, MP. I am saying I couldn't care less whether it exists. All I care about is getting a good show going.

When I stopped trying to hypnotise people, and started trying to get them to follow my instructions, my success rate improved dramatically. I structure the show in such a way as to ensure that I have a panel of people who will do what I say automatically, without any thought on their part. What you call that is open to debate, but I don't believe it involves any altered state.
Dannydoyle
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Not a bad way to put it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mtpascoe
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So, Tony, to do this, you still follow the same stage hypnotic script, or are you cutting to the chase and just doing the tricks?
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Mar 16, 2014, mtpascoe wrote:
So, Tony, to do this, you still follow the same stage hypnotic script, or are you cutting to the chase and just doing the tricks?

Generally a reduced two minute induction and no deepener. But very occasionally straight in. Look at the electric chair routine of Barry & Stuart or Paul Daniels. Straight in.
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On Mar 15, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 15, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.

No, MP. I am saying I couldn't care less whether it exists. All I care about is getting a good show going.

When I stopped trying to hypnotise people, and started trying to get them to follow my instructions, my success rate improved dramatically. I structure the show in such a way as to ensure that I have a panel of people who will do what I say automatically, without any thought on their part. What you call that is open to debate, but I don't believe it involves any altered state.


Everything is open to debate doesn't mean its worth debating. I don't call amnesia amnesia it is amnesia.You can debate but it doesn't change the fact its amnesia.And I remember you used to put a lot of value on academic research well a simple search on google comes up with pages of research on the subject. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=academ......ws_rd=cr


"get them to follow the instructions" will hypnotize them. So you moved your focus from worrying about whether they were hypnotized or not to getting them to do what you want them to. And guess what you got them to do what you wanted them to.

that's my whole point if you focus on where you want to go you will find a way of getting there. That is the basic notion that will allow you to get better results using hypnosis(or any tool) and allow you to develop into new applications.

And so it continues in circles...

So who cares time stop flogging a dead horse. Does flogging really exist? or is just reinforcing a pointless act? Anybody up for a debate about it?
TonyB2009
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MP, I am open to the possibility that I may be hypnotising people without realising it! There was a time I wasn't open to that possibility. You are making progress on me.

I will have a look at the research once this crazy weekend is behind me. Gigs, gigs, gigs...
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