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critter
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"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
landmark
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For some reason the graphic isn't displaying for me. But in answer to the thread's title: Yes.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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LobowolfXXX
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Some questionable math here.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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2 + 2 = 4 he means.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Cliffg37
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I love being a teacher, but yes... sometimes it sucks. The kids are great... Most parents are OK... some administrators are....
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acesover
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I have never seen such a BS description of what a teacher does as this one in ages. Not sure what teachers have an 8 hour day. Definitely not sure what teachers come an hour early or stay an hour late and help students. Where is that happening. Surely not here in Northeast Pa. Your graph does say teachers which emcompasses all teachers. Not saying some do not do what the graph states. But I cannot find it anywhere near where I live.

In those 8 hours that you speak of which I cannot find here in Northeast Pa. do they get a lunch hour? Do they teach for 8 straight hours or do they have classes only some of the time they are there? Does the 49k you mention as average take into consideration their benefits such as healthcare and retirement? Also if you are telling me that a teacher teaches for 8 hours a day do you mean to tell me that if school starts at 8a.m. they work till 4p.m.? What teachers in what school system has those hours? Again not here in northeast Pa.

I know what I am talking about here in Northeast Pa. as I am very involved politically and our school boards here are very political. In fact the area in which I reside the teachers are now on strike. Some of the things they want is complete health care coverage with no contribution from them. They now pay 25/month toward health care. Also if either spouse has another job with health coverage they want to be reimbursed for what it would cost the district to pay for their coverage. If two teachers are married they also want to be compensated for health care coverage as it is covered by the other spouse. Also want additional sick days as they talk so much they get laryngitis and have to use sick days and claim it is caused by their jobs. I hope these demands sound off the wall to you but you have to realize they have so many benefits it is difficult to find something new to ask for. Forgot to mention they want increase in pay totaling 23% in 3 years.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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You know, I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but when I see such ignorant nonsense as a previous post I have to respond.

The number of work hours in New York City, a city with 75,000 public school teachers, probably more than the total student population of Northeast PA fantasyland, is a number I am intimately familiar with, HAVING ACTUALLY TAUGHT FOR 20 YEARS IN THE SYSTEM UNLIKE OTHERS POSTING IN THIS THREAD WHOSE NAMES BEGIN WITH "A."

Sorry. Now, I'll use my indoor voice.

1) In a typical NYC high school (hey, like the one I actually worked in for 20 years) the school day began at 8:00 officially.

2) I don't know any teacher that didn't come before 7:30 to set up their room, get lessons xeroxed, meet parents, meet with administrators, get equipment from the video room, and so on before the madness of students arriving began.

3) The official school day was from 8 to 3:20 with a 45 minute break for lunch. For most of the teachers I know, including myself, that was a working lunch, with students coming to make up homework or a missed test, or get some tutoring for the day's lesson while we gobbled down a sandwich. It was the only time I could go to the bathroom--two flights of steps up, because we had to share the charter school's bathroom in the charter school co-located in our building.

4) After teaching classes was officially over, by NYC contract, I and all other teachers then taught officially, by contract, for 40 minutes more each day in a tutoring setting, which ended about 4:00 pm.

5) If it's a Monday then I'm staying another hour for a mandated meeting. Two Mondays a month for a schoolwide meeting, and the other two Mondays a month for a department meeting.

6) When I get home at 5, I have the following to look forward to: at least two hours of marking papers (you can do the math; if I spend 2 minutes per student paper marking homework, then 150 students x 2 minutes = 300 minutes or 5 hours a night. Since I'm mandated by my principal to give homework every night, I admit sometimes I slack on this. There are times I leave the whole pile for weekends and "holidays" to grade.)

7) After at least 2 hours of grading, I have to write lesson plans for each class. They must be in writing, and they must have details about how I plan to differentiate the lesson for different skill levels. Can I teach any high school math class with my eyes closed after so many years? Yes. No matter. The written lesson plan must be there. And really, each class is different, and you have to think about the differences no matter how long you have been doing it. So writing the lesson plan and preparing the accompanying materials is another two hours easily.

8) So in a typical day, I would get to school about 7:15 and work until 11pm. The breaks were lunch, dinnertime, some computer time, and travel time. But like I said, I was a bit of a slacker and decided there had to be boundaries. My wife, the best ESL teacher in the city, works generally at least until midnight. Last Friday, she didn't get home until 1 AM, because she had to take a young female student to the police station. The student's guardian had been beating her with an electric cord.

9) This doesn't include after school classes or activities for which teachers are generally compensated. But it also doesn't include home visits, numerous nighttime calls to parents, weekend trips, college visits with students, after school tutoring beyond the mandated 40 minutes, or after school standardized test grading which can take tens of hours over a year, which are not compensated.

10) Re Lobo's comment about the math--there are some overlapping categories, but for the most part the math is correct. The number of working months is slightly overstated I think--at least for a veteran teacher. If a teacher has been teaching for more than say five years, and has finished all of his or her mandated classes, then I would say for a NYC teacher the summer looks like this (assuming s/he is not teaching summer school): July is vacation, the first two weeks of August is half vacation and half preparing curriculum for the new school year, and the last two weeks of August most teachers are in their schools preparing (moving furniture, painting walls, washing desks, tables, chairs--yes!, hanging posters, meeting with partners and admins to set school policies and so on).

11) Perhaps aces, you could give a similar account of what it takes to run a pool hall and other rental properties. I know a landlord here who just sits back and collects checks. But that's probably just what it looks like from here, yes?
critter
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First of all, I don't speak of anything. I provided a link to something that I found interesting and then chose a snappy title for the thread.

That said, I do find the information believable. Just to teach a 1 credit college class I was reading and making powerpoints for 12 hours per day over my entire vacation, and then continuing to read and refine them throughout the quarter whilst doing my other schoolwork. That's for teaching a measly hour per week. Besides those basic preparations I also made myself available for questions and provided supplemental online material that went far beyond the class content. And don't even get me started on grading.
So, knowing how hard it is to do something as tiny as teach 20 adults a 1 hour class every week, I can easily see how teachers doing a full day with 60 kids (which I've seen around here) would be doing a lot of extra work.

All that aside, the main point in the link was simply that we should appreciate what most teachers do for our kids. No idea how that's not a valid point, but potato/potato... Speaking of, I'm glad my kid won't end up as a potato because he's got an excellent teacher.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Cliffg37
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There are many things I want to say right now. Some might get me banned, so I will make this simple.

Go find a teacher willing to let you be in his class for one period every day for one week. Get him to let you teach. You pick a subject to teach, one you are familiar with. On Friday give the kids a reasonable test on your materiel. If I am the teacher you talked to, I would make sure to help you with classroom management (student behavior) because you have not had classes in how to keep a class under control and I have. If you are willing to invest the time, I would help you work up hand-outs and activities to back up your lesson. But remember you will have to invest the time to make these things happen. I can write a reasonable lesson plan in about half an hour; but I have been doing that for 23 years. It will take you longer and there may be mistakes for you to correct.

As a guest, the kids will probably show you good behavior. and the test scores will be lower than you expect. Probably much lower. Just because a kid listens to you and smiles or nods, does not mean he or she gets it.

But you won't do any of that. as a magician, you have a huge advantage. Most people are terrified to get up in front of a potentially hostile, or bored, audience. You have some experience in front of a group. Most people wouldn't dare try.

But since you won't do it, think about this... Do you have children of your own? What would you have done without teachers? Think about that honestly Mr. Acesover. Then we will see what you come up with.
Magic is like Science,
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Cliffg37
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And btw: what should you pay someone who has gone through four years of college for a bachelors degree...
1-2 year (depending on the state) of graduate school for the teaching credential..
1-2 years of extra class room training (again dependent on the state)..
In some states MUST have a master's degree to keep their job..
and must prove a certain number of hours of continuing education to keep their jobs on an annual basis?

Interesting question huh?

BTW a manager in the local department of sanitation makes more money than I do. Probably never went to college and gets better benefits. This is because it is easy and obvious to see what happens when no one collects your garbage.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Mar 19, 2014, Cliffg37 wrote:
And btw: what should you pay someone who has gone through four years of college for a bachelors degree...
1-2 year (depending on the state) of graduate school for the teaching credential..
1-2 years of extra class room training (again dependent on the state)..
In some states MUST have a master's degree to keep their job..
and must prove a certain number of hours of continuing education to keep their jobs on an annual basis?

Interesting question huh?

BTW a manager in the local department of sanitation makes more money than I do. Probably never went to college and gets better benefits. This is because it is easy and obvious to see what happens when no one collects your garbage.


When does your teaching day start, and when does it stop?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Steve Suss
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I must confess that I too believed that teaching was an easy profession. I could not have been more wrong. Both my wife and daughter both teach. My wife is a speech therapist and my daughter is a reading specialist. They both get to work at 7:30 every morning and don't get home until 5:00 in the evening when they usually do various errands. When I get home at 7:00 my wife is cooking dinner. After dinner my wife and daughter are back at their computers doing work until approximately 11:00 PM. I'm usually drinking wine and watching TV while practicing my magic. My big job comes at 11:00 when my wife is done doing her work. I close the lights and say "goodnight sweetheart".

Seriously, teaching is a very demanding and time consuming job. It's gotten much more difficult through the years. Good teachers deserve tremendous respect.

Steve
Cliffg37
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Lobo,

My day officially starts at 7:55 a.m. But that does not take into account copying of hand outs, setting up labs, helping students etc, that must happen before school starts.

My day officially ends at 2:45 p.m. but as landmark said, My Monday's are not my own for an hour after school. I am also obliged to stay an hour after two other days each week. One for tutoring (which I would do anyway) and one to facilitate a club. Every teacher is expected to be involved in at least one club.

Like landmark said, my lunch period is often not my own. I can't bring myself to turn away a student with a legitimate question or a legitimate problem of some type.

Those are my official hours. but again, that does not include work I do after school which is just as much a part of the job as the rest of it.
Magic is like Science,
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LobowolfXXX
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I'm not suggesting that your workday solely consists of teaching. I teach, I have worked as a public school teacher, and I was raised by a single parent who taught. However, the article claims that before getting to all of those "above and beyond" things, we start with eight hours per day teaching. In Landmark's case, that was accurate, but I strongly suspect that his case is exceptional. In your case, our base is not eight hours, but six hours fifty minutes. The article represents as compared to your experience a 15% exaggeration at the outset.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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I think of it as similar to graduate school. People always say "well you only go to class for blah hours a week, that's not hard," as if that's all there is to it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Thanks for answering, by the way, Cliff.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Quote:
On Mar 19, 2014, landmark wrote:
You know, I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but when I see such ignorant nonsense as a previous post I have to respond.

The number of work hours in New York City, a city with 75,000 public school teachers, probably more than the total student population of Northeast PA fantasyland, is a number I am intimately familiar with, HAVING ACTUALLY TAUGHT FOR 20 YEARS IN THE SYSTEM UNLIKE OTHERS POSTING IN THIS THREAD WHOSE NAMES BEGIN WITH "A."

Sorry. Now, I'll use my indoor voice.

1) In a typical NYC high school (hey, like the one I actually worked in for 20 years) the school day began at 8:00 officially.

2) I don't know any teacher that didn't come before 7:30 to set up their room, get lessons xeroxed, meet parents, meet with administrators, get equipment from the video room, and so on before the madness of students arriving began.

3) The official school day was from 8 to 3:20 with a 45 minute break for lunch. For most of the teachers I know, including myself, that was a working lunch, with students coming to make up homework or a missed test, or get some tutoring for the day's lesson while we gobbled down a sandwich. It was the only time I could go to the bathroom--two flights of steps up, because we had to share the charter school's bathroom in the charter school co-located in our building.

4) After teaching classes was officially over, by NYC contract, I and all other teachers then taught officially, by contract, for 40 minutes more each day in a tutoring setting, which ended about 4:00 pm.

5) If it's a Monday then I'm staying another hour for a mandated meeting. Two Mondays a month for a schoolwide meeting, and the other two Mondays a month for a department meeting.

6) When I get home at 5, I have the following to look forward to: at least two hours of marking papers (you can do the math; if I spend 2 minutes per student paper marking homework, then 150 students x 2 minutes = 300 minutes or 5 hours a night. Since I'm mandated by my principal to give homework every night, I admit sometimes I slack on this. There are times I leave the whole pile for weekends and "holidays" to grade.)

7) After at least 2 hours of grading, I have to write lesson plans for each class. They must be in writing, and they must have details about how I plan to differentiate the lesson for different skill levels. Can I teach any high school math class with my eyes closed after so many years? Yes. No matter. The written lesson plan must be there. And really, each class is different, and you have to think about the differences no matter how long you have been doing it. So writing the lesson plan and preparing the accompanying materials is another two hours easily.

8) So in a typical day, I would get to school about 7:15 and work until 11pm. The breaks were lunch, dinnertime, some computer time, and travel time. But like I said, I was a bit of a slacker and decided there had to be boundaries. My wife, the best ESL teacher in the city, works generally at least until midnight. Last Friday, she didn't get home until 1 AM, because she had to take a young female student to the police station. The student's guardian had been beating her with an electric cord.

9) This doesn't include after school classes or activities for which teachers are generally compensated. But it also doesn't include home visits, numerous nighttime calls to parents, weekend trips, college visits with students, after school tutoring beyond the mandated 40 minutes, or after school standardized test grading which can take tens of hours over a year, which are not compensated.

10) Re Lobo's comment about the math--there are some overlapping categories, but for the most part the math is correct. The number of working months is slightly overstated I think--at least for a veteran teacher. If a teacher has been teaching for more than say five years, and has finished all of his or her mandated classes, then I would say for a NYC teacher the summer looks like this (assuming s/he is not teaching summer school): July is vacation, the first two weeks of August is half vacation and half preparing curriculum for the new school year, and the last two weeks of August most teachers are in their schools preparing (moving furniture, painting walls, washing desks, tables, chairs--yes!, hanging posters, meeting with partners and admins to set school policies and so on).

11) Perhaps aces, you could give a similar account of what it takes to run a pool hall and other rental properties. I know a landlord here who just sits back and collects checks. But that's probably just what it looks like from here, yes?


What the heck does a a typical NYC high school have to do with a Northeast Pa high school? To be more specific, "Wyoming Area High School" located in West Pittston, Pa. Why is Northeast Pa. a fantasyland in your opinion? I am telling you how it is here. Maybe you don't like it but that is to bad. Seems to me that maybe you should have found another job if it was so terrible in NYC.

The question here was asked how much should a teacher make after going to college and earning a BA and sometimes a masters degree. That answer is simple. What the market bears. How much in demand are teachers? How many unemployed college grads with teaching degrees? What you put into your education is only a small part of what one is expected to reaps for his or her efforts in college. College only gave you certain skills and a degree. There is a lot more to any career than that and I believe any teacher knows that. How much in demand is there for your skills? How good are you at those skills? One should be judged on ones results not what education they have. Truthfully I know a lot of college grads that are not that bright in any field, and have very little social skills and are just as far as I am concerned unemployable. Because they went to college and earned a teaching degree does not mean they are entitled to anything more than any other college grad and should be judged on their demand and their skills. It also does not guarantee them a job. in fact here one must be connected in order to get a teaching position. Nepotism and cronyism is rampant here.

So maybe it is not like this all over the U.S. But I do not believe teachers are underpaid college grads with terrible jobs and lousy benefits and slave like hours and wages. No matter how you slice it they have to teach 180 days a year. that is not even every other day in the average year. Most teachers here go one of two ways. The just enjoy the summer or they have a summer job.

I can honestly say, that if I was not a business man and know what I know now. I would have given teaching a lot of thought as a career in my area. It may be just as you call it Fantasy land. Because it is from where I stand. I can honestly say I do not remember any teacher leaving our School District for another position in over 30 years. Teaching or otherwise.

Also just reading your post you must have taught a long long time ago as you Xeroxed copies. lol

Please don't try and tell me about teachers in my area. I backed 3 school board members in the last election and two of the were elected and I have been involved in local politics for a long long time.

Any teachers who take on other positions after school get paid to do so here. Also it is not mandatory.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
critter
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The low demand for teachers has nothing to do with "market demand" and everything to do with education funding being de-prioritized in favor of military spending.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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^IMO
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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